Current Meta
Parry.(The best, easiest, and most rewarded Style. 50/50 guessing ontop of that if they don't know the moves coming.)
Grab Punch.(Really fast, hyper-armor, hits mid, can track depending on latency making dodging pointless. Parry is the best counter, but that's bad design if someone has to play a style to consistently beat one move.)
Manually switch to Grab Punch over and over for interesting results.(Stopping attacks are too specifically made, they do too low of damage, require the correct quadrant and are verticals)
Roll Back Fist(Or similar vertical avoid to counter most attacks and Guard Breaks in case you need to turtle up and have a button to dodge their guard break and counter attack at the same time. Also dis-heartens the player to go for Stopping attacks.)
It's getting pretty frustrating that this is all I'm fighting, it feels like player skill is thrown out the window, that I have to make a deck specifically to beat this, it's putting the entire deck system to shame when everyone's deck is ending up the same.
I deem it as a balance issue that risks making players leave, and frustrating new players from sticking around from a already harsh environment.
But I'm sure there are people who'll disagree with me without thinking.
Which is a shame, I want this game to be good, and I want it to get it's population back.
Grab Punch.(Really fast, hyper-armor, hits mid, can track depending on latency making dodging pointless. Parry is the best counter, but that's bad design if someone has to play a style to consistently beat one move.)
Manually switch to Grab Punch over and over for interesting results.(Stopping attacks are too specifically made, they do too low of damage, require the correct quadrant and are verticals)
Roll Back Fist(Or similar vertical avoid to counter most attacks and Guard Breaks in case you need to turtle up and have a button to dodge their guard break and counter attack at the same time. Also dis-heartens the player to go for Stopping attacks.)
It's getting pretty frustrating that this is all I'm fighting, it feels like player skill is thrown out the window, that I have to make a deck specifically to beat this, it's putting the entire deck system to shame when everyone's deck is ending up the same.
I deem it as a balance issue that risks making players leave, and frustrating new players from sticking around from a already harsh environment.
But I'm sure there are people who'll disagree with me without thinking.
Which is a shame, I want this game to be good, and I want it to get it's population back.
Comments
Parry• Slower Recovery on whiffed Parries to stop Consecutive Parry Spamming, potentially takes increased damage if they miss the parry. A vulnerable state, so it's less optimal to just go for 50/50 guesses, you won't win in the long run if you guess.
This makes Feinting stronger as well in return, allowing feints and quick counter attacks to a whiff parry to inflict more damage, compared to hitting them with a quick attack and slowly widdling them down while risking getting parry buffered into Side Kick which will out-race you in Damage.
Grab Punch(Or all charge attacks)• A crush threshold, Grab punch would be the weakest of the threshold. High damage attacks (depending on the gear being worn perhaps) will break the charge attack, without needing to rely on extremely fast hits to hit twice, or getting lucky and hitting them with a double attack at the same time they do grab punch.
The other Charge attacks are slower and more predictable to avoid, grab punch is excluded from this due to it's speed and has only slightly lower damage to make up for that. It's far too powerful in other decks and is used as a skeleton key to problems the player should learn to figure out solutions to.
Alternatively, the Stopping Attacks get a revamp so they're more used. Currently they're all Verticals that do extremely low damage. They were designed specifically to beat Charge Attacks, I feel that's a problem in their design.
Roll Back Fist• I really don't have a good idea to fix this sadly, my biggest problem with Vertical Avoids is it being used in combination with the above, if you try to use a guard break, they can vertical avoid it.
So situations of where the player Guards till you throw out a Guard Break, and counters the Vertical with a Vertical Avoid, rinse and repeat.
Using slow horizontals to break their guard has the risk of easily being countered(Specially with Parry).
I hope this helps anyone at Sloclap be aware of these issues that are rising more and more as people catch on.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on these balance changes! I'll be bringing your ideas to the team, however I can't promise that they'll be implemented.
Thank you so much for bearing with us.
Anyway, I agree immensely. Roll Back Fist and general strafing moves are absurdly prevalent because they pretty much circumvent most approaches unless you go for something real ballsy.
Builds that feature Body Blow and Roll Back are pretty much constant, and punishing it requires building specifically for it because of the amount of moves these things avoid. Tons of moves are considered thrust for some reason. You pretty much can phase through Wallop Blow by moving your body into the fist with Roll Back. It looks incredibly stupid and doesn't make much sense since Wallop seems to come from an angle. I feel like to fix this would require changing whats thrust atm? Currently it seems like half the moves in every prospects repertoire are thrust and they just dive through the opponent like its a naruto fanfiction.
Grab Punch I think needs a speed nerf. Yea its weaker than every other charge attack but it also hits faster than most medium blows and doubles as a charge attack out of a low stance. Are there even other charge attacks out of low stances? Needless to say its such an outlier in the charge attack tree with the sheer speed and similar utility you're pretty much guaranteed to find this one on someone if you do CTs for even just a few games. Not gonna lie, the crush threshold sounds gimmicky at best. I think adding more moves to the list of guard breaks/stopping attacks would help this immensely, because as you said, most of the stopping attacks kind of suck.
Parry I think has been discussed immensely already. That beast needs a recovery frame increase. You get so many opportunities just mashing the general direction of where you assume an attack will come from. Mediocre knowledge of your enemies deck with the Parry Ability will pretty much lead to a win in most cases. It also can lead to some absurd combos, such as Parry -> Side Kick -> Front Kick -> Gravity -> Side Kick -> Front Kick. Add in Buffering and Option Select, it can fundamentally beat out feints if you just lab those two extra techs, making it absurdly powerful against pretty much everything. I like the addition of increased damage upon use though, as punishing whiffs with fast moves will actually be reasonable instead of doing sliver damage of like 30 and then giving them the opportunity to parry your next move for like 130+.
Hopin' SloClap gets on these beasts, as they're super prevalent.
Or wait your opponent to use roll back fist, then counter attack.
You also can't wait for an opponent to use it if they just turtle it. The meta is very apparent. As far as returns go strafe moves are such an absurdly solid pick I haven't met a single person not using them, backing up, and doing the exact same setup again. I like the term "Skeleton Key".
Keep in mind I'm not saying the meta is a see-all-win-all, I'm just saying its so apparently powerful it blatantly pushes people away from CTs.
It is your choice.
If your opponent is a turtle and you know he'll use roll back fist as a starter, you should be able to counter it with your defensive ability then punish.
While you don't need to set up your deck to combat them, if you don't then you can pretty much have your opponent spam strafes at you for absurd results. Many people have their matches start with jabs and other fast moves that hit fast. Roll Back Fist punishes most initiators right off the bat. Constantly initiating with a strafing move can land you absurd dominance in a game and takes quite a dump on most neutral.
Parry is too easy to spam, but it's straightforward to dodge/block the opponent's counterhit. In my experience, a successful parry nets no more than one fast attack. Two if I'm drunk and my LT finger takes a break.
Roll back is perfect. It's as fast as the other strafe moves, what makes it better is the confusing parry direction. Easily countered by any sweep and most horizontal kicks, or homework if you're parry mans.
Grab punch is also perfect. If you get demolished by grab punch, try dodging sometime. If your opponent is turtsquad and holds LT until you throw a move, try feinting into stopper. I recommend Dwit Chagi, it's decently fast, has moderate range, and best of all is more homework for parry mans.
Bottom line: meta decks may be scary, but one sweep, one stopper, and a pinch of patience isn't going to ruin your playstyle.
Tested time and time again, parry does not just lead into a single fast attack. It leads into a critically damaging move of over 120+.
Roll back covers so many options and counters stoppers, guard breaks, straights and thrust and also punishes them for using them.
Grab punch casts so fast I've seen players just hit with it once back up and do it again. Good luck dodging an almost instant casting charged attack with tracking? The best you can do is just trade with them and then they can just turtle up again for Grab Punch.
Roll back is fine -- it's one of the best counter moves for jabs, but I still use punches to initiate, and if you time it right, there's no problem with tracking the roll punch, or body blow, that I've found.
Grab punch has also become almost completely non-threatening to me. I've seen it so much that as soon as I see someone start to stumble toward me, chin forward, I dodge to the side and punish it. If they spam it, then they get punished over and over, and I never find myself trading with it. It's blockable, too.
The only guy to show me problems is in this video and its because he has Roll Back, which again, is another problem I feel persist in this game with the way strafing moves seem to be an end all by all.
ew, weeb anime thumbnail
second of all
good fighting
third of all
parry is really not that good. I've parried people before, and before I can get a hit in, they're back to spamming me into a corner. Had to resort to timing a dodge and then just returning the favour with a kick-deck. All it does is stop someone in their tracks- it depends on their opening attack speed on how fast that paintrain can start moving again.
You can literally confirm anything faster than side kick, which ergo means anything for over 100 if you're just fucking around, and like 135 if you're optimal as hell.
I'll return for an update if I ever lose a game again. So long, and thanks for all the tips!
There you go! You pretty much have the same deck as everybody else now
You see the problem here though now, right? They give such good returns compared to any other move because they bully most other attacks.
Idk how to really counter them effectively without using other meta techniques.
If there's a problem with roll back fist being the first initiate attack, and you have a jab, then wait for them to send it out and then hit them when they stop strafing, or time the jab to catch them before they initiate it, or just control the combat distance better. You can use different timing if you keep getting caught in the strafing attacks, and catch them before or after they initiate them.
Personally, I think people that rely on spammy tactics are sort of stuck in place skill-wise, and their defense falls apart when their attacks are stopped consistently. There are also meta moves that are in everyone's deck, and there are ways to not only dodge them, but punish them mid-animation. Not saying I win 100% of the time, but I don't think there's any way someone can cheese you out completely if you know your deck well, with any of these "tactics."
Also all stopping attacks are straights and can be punished extremely easy because they even have wind up animations. He even tries to do it in the video but grab punch is just so fast I can hit him anyway if I just space him out. With any other charged attack the utility is not as grand. There are significantly more returns with me spamming this single move than him trying to use counterplay options.
The problem with rollback isn't it just counters jab, lows do that too. My problem with that is it cancels jabs, thrusts and verticals even if it means phasing through the move like a wizard.
Again, not saying they're the end-all-be-all of techniques, I'm just saying mechanically they are far stronger comparatively to other things that should function with similar utility.
I agree that dodging through all straight attacks is ridiculous -- and I don't like fighting people who's decks are all in on this, because I use a lot of straight attacks -- but I've reached the point where I don't care what people do in a match, I'm not changing my deck. Instead, I just try to figure out how to out-play spam and meta attacks. I have no charge attacks or stagger in my deck, and I face a lot of this stuff, and I win more matches than I lose without resorting to them. I also only have two moves that dodge vertical attacks, and one of them is the back roll fist, but it's not my initiate attack, because I've found that it isn't as versatile as a simple jab. As soon as I see the roll back fist as the first move in a deck, I have ways of dealing with it that usually involve controlling the distance.