"Back move" of stagger style is OP.

edited February 2018 in Suggestions?
Subj.

I dunno why this thing is still exists in the game, but this should be fixed. Cause all this drunk guys have this "move back" move to avoid ANY type of attacks, no matter the direction and almoust no matter the timing (cause the "avoid window" is so giant). There are no counter measures for this like if you fight khalt you can use guard breaks to break thrugh their absorb ability. Here it just nothing... They just spam that thing every second move and counter attack you. For windfall you have 3(!!!) directions you have to chose to avoid attacks. But this guys... they don't need to remember your deck, or choose a right direction to avoid a corresponding attack they just *poop* drag mouse back every single time - and like "oh I'm soo good in this game" - easy.

Jesus Christ could you please do so this "back move" doesn't help agains a direct attacks? Like guard breaks for example. Why do even they have a universal tool for avoding? I just can't understand.

Yes I know you can slower your pacing etc. but if your opponent has attacks which are faster than yours it wouldn't help, he will be just mixing that thing with his fast attacks and defeat you.

And yeah, for those who want to defend this and say that it's not OP, I've got a universual argument - drinking alcohol is bad for your heath. And I will spam this argument until you lose.
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Comments

  • If every move of yours is to slow to hit a back moving stagger guy, you should really fix your deck. If you ask me i would prefere making the sidedodges of stagger stronger and making the back dodge vunerable for attack with more than 2,2m range. just to give stagger more diversity...
    put compared to khalt and forsaken stagger isnt op because you wont get a high advantage from spamming your back dodge as long as your opponent isnt that stupid to get hit by a fast move afterwards over and over again.
  • Now that ive seen your deck its obvious why stagger players dont use other moves xDD. You use ducking dodges 70% of the time your deck is full with evasive moves and stagger attacks are all high attacks... why should a stagger player choose another def.ability when he wont hit it anyway? Although you use horizontal attacks 80% of the time, wich makes side dodges useless. If your deck would be more diverse stagger players would fight you with more than the back dodge, but it isnt.
  • edited February 2018
    My deck is not slow. I'm just don't use the fastest moves, cause they are garbage and not effective agains windfall for example also I don't like spam people. And stop telling that the problem is me. Stagger has this super powers to avoid every attack without need to use skill. So please stop defend it. Its OP, and it should be fixed thats it. And it has nothing to do with my deck.

    As I said this move can avoid ANY attacks, no matter the direction: horizontal, vertial, diagonal, whatever. On the contrary I'AM ASKING to do so that it should matter which direction I'm using. Cause right now it doesn't matter. Even if I made every single attack in my deck as vertical, staggers still will avoid them with their back move.
  • edited February 2018
    >>You use ducking dodges 70% of the time your deck is full with evasive moves and stagger attacks are all high attacks...
    I'm not use ducking dodges 70% of the time I'm using those that work against my opponent. If I used it against you - its mean that you have too many high attacks. Basically I have one or two moves to avoid attacks from every direction. And if we are talking about percents then most of my attacks are dodging low attacks.

    >>If your deck would be more diverse stagger players would fight you with more than the back dodge
    Let them do it, it does not matter, what's important is that direct attacks doesn't work if stagger makes a back move. Haven't you read what I said?

    Please read this: Staggers back move can avoid ANY ATTACK, doesn't matter: vertical, horiizontal, diagonal it works against everything. So every time you take the initiative he just spam his back move, even khalts are not so annoying, while other classes have notable weaknesses. For example windfall have to remember the opponent deck, against forsaken you can fake your attacks, you can break khalt absorbing by guard breaks. And what do we have for stagger? Huh? He has a universal move to avoid ANY kind of attacks and this is not fair to other classes. When I do guard break I've contantly see how the leg of my character passes through the staggers and it doesn't count as hit. This is just stupid. They should have pros and cons like other classes. And It has nothing to do with my deck at all. Cause I'm talking with people and they suffer from it as well.
  • Thats your opinion but nothing more. Shouting out stagger would be over powered just because you fought some stagger players that where really good doesnt help. Youre only viewing one side and that is "the back dodge can avoid anything", yes it can, every advanced absolver knows that but that doesnt mean its OP.
    That is because on the other hand the stagger avoid has alot disadvantages compared to a parry, absorb or successful windfall dodge: you cant punish the opponent for free, you dont nessecerily get a speed advantage
    aaand the stamina recovery isnt that strong as windfall and your opponent isnt slowed nor is he stopped from gold linking.
    As you should see by now there are easiely as much cons as pros to the backdodge. May ask for other opinions or learn something till you fully understand it before you want it to change at all costs.

    p.s
    you play forsaken with earth quake and heal xD did you even realise most of the players consider that to be OP?
  • edited February 2018
    >>Thats your opinion but nothing more.
    Orly? And your is not an opinion but a truer truth?
    C'mon man.

    >>Shouting out stagger would be over powered just because you fought some stagger players that where really good doesnt help
    Wha? Why you still continue this? Man? Why you trying to arrange as if the whole thing is in me? It is counterproductive, dude, you're act like some kind of fanboy which is belive that the game is perfect and there just can't be something unbalanced.

    Ok. Lets make it simple.
    Are you going to argue that you can avoid any attacks with back moves (vertical and direct included)? Yes or no?
  • edited February 2018
    >>you play forsaken with earth quake and heal xD did you even realise most of the players consider that to be OP?
    Man, stop acting like you know me because we fought once.
    I play windfall as well and constantly changing my abilities. Yesterday I was playing with that thing that is freezing opponents shards for example, before I was using shockwave. Now its earthquake. And I agree that it is OP and devs need to nerf it a little bit, lets say set the cost to 3 shards. But the problem is... THAT THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT IT :D
  • methamos said:

    Youre only viewing one side and that is "the back dodge can avoid anything", yes it can, every advanced absolver knows that but that doesnt mean its OP.
    That is because on the other hand the stagger avoid has alot disadvantages compared to a parry, absorb or successful windfall dodge: you cant punish the opponent for free, you dont nessecerily get a speed advantage
    aaand the stamina recovery isnt that strong as windfall and your opponent isnt slowed nor is he stopped from gold linking.
    As you should see by now there are easiely as much cons as pros to the backdodge. May ask for other opinions or learn something till you fully understand it before you want it to change at all costs.

    All of your questions where already awnsered. Dont confuse the point because its NOT about being able to dodge anything or not BUT how effective in comparison to other defensive abilities it is.
    I didnt assume the game or the back dodge to be perfect BUT there is much more to the balancing than just
    : being able to dodge anything=OP : because of the lvl of effectiveness AND the the diffeculty of timing.
    Despite youre saying the back dodge would be easy to time its action time is shorter than that of forsaken for example.

    At last, yes this thread isnt about your personal playstyle, but since i didnt see you comment on the other sections of balancing but instead focusing on 30%, of one move, of one style i had to guide your attention to more topics
    in order to get a more funtional instead of emotional view.
  • edited February 2018
    >>All of your questions where already awnsered. Dont confuse the point because its NOT about being able to dodge anything or not BUT how effective in comparison to other defensive abilities it is.

    First of all, no you haven't answered. Secondly IT IS a question of being able to dodge anything )
    Especially when you claim this: "if your deck would be more diverse stagger players would fight you with more than the back dodge, but it isnt"
    Other stuff is just a demagogy, sorry.

    >>of one style i had to guide your attention to more topics
    >>in order to get a more funtional instead of emotional view.

    Oh I see you're one of those who put themselves above everyone else and a priori believes that people are stupider than you are? ) Man I'am suggesting you to stop doing that.
    If you're against that Im saying - please just move along. Relax a bit, I clearly understand that you're not agree with me, but I dunno why u're trying to impose your point of view on me like it is a purpose of your existence.
  • Methamos is trying to Tell you his opinion. If you are not able to discuss your thoughts and accept others opinions, Maybe you shouldnt post im a forum.
  • Hi FishMan,

    Thanks so much for your feedback! We truly appreciate the time you took to share your opinion on the Stagger "Back Move" with us, and will be sure to pass it along. Please feel free to share any other suggestions or feedback you may have in the future.
  • Everything i said was refering to the game absolver and/or your absolver PLAYSTYLE so youre the only one whos trying to infer my attitude.

    That means im not interested in how intelligent or whatever you are but the ONLY thing that matters to me is what youve said.
    FishMan said:

    Subj.

    I dunno why this thing is still exists in the game, but this should be fixed. Cause all this drunk guys have this "move back" move to avoid ANY type of attacks, no matter the direction and almoust no matter the timing (cause the "avoid window" is so giant). There are no counter measures for this like if you fight khalt you can use guard breaks to break thrugh their absorb ability. Here it just nothing... They just spam that thing every second move and counter attack you. For windfall you have 3(!!!) directions you have to chose to avoid attacks. But this guys... they don't need to remember your deck, or choose a right direction to avoid a corresponding attack they just *poop* drag mouse back every single time - and like "oh I'm soo good in this game" - easy.

    You dont include the downsides of the back dodge, thats why its just logical that you havent analysed it properly.

    For example:

    1: There are no counter measures for this - charged moves break through the hit of the back dodge and all evasive moves except for jumps wont get hit by it.
    2. they don't need to remember your deck - decks have fast and slow attacks, since the timing is shorter than with forsaken you have to guess the attack OR react to it, but thats just the case for every other combat style except that windfall and forsaken have more direction but although have much stronger reward.

    You said something onesided and partly incorrect thats why i added my view.
    Thats simply a function of a forum, to exchange opinions.
  • Ok so , to start if you only use horizontal move they wont use the sides much only forward and backwards. Thats to be expected.

    stagger abilities beninift alot from the heal skill because they hit, but otherwise they have the only special ability that can be stoppoed by another special ability... because they hit.

    So is it OP. No its not.

    though on the other hand there are some attacks that should'nt be dodged by it. maybe a small revieiw on its interaction with some (not all) moves is needed.


    P.S you could always unlock vs one who spams it and sprint attack him to engage. Or be less agressive and wait for counters, they cant evade while in the middle of delivering a hit.
  • i think it would make sense not to dodge high range middle attacks because the back stumble leaves one leg vunerable in the middle. may it will be needed to make such a nerf to stagger after the next patch in wich they buff the stagger range for example.


  • edited March 2018
    >>You dont include the downsides of the back dodge, thats why its just logical that you havent analysed it properly.

    The only downside of back dodge is timing. Its 1000000000% eaiser as for other classes.
    And I tried it for my self. There no need to use any skill for this move you just spam it and it works, it SUPER easy to do, I just switched to stagger first time and you've seen that there was no problem for me to do it. It was my third fight with this class, man!

    Direct hits (like direct guard brakes) shouldn't be avoided by this move, thats why you have side move. Cause right now you just don't need it at all. And it much easier to fight with other classes cause you can avoid every second hit. Its easy as hell. Now try the same trick for forsaken or for widnfall I'll look how fast you will be destroyed.

    The only person here who is too emotional to admit an obvious thing is you, cause seems like you play as stagger and afraid that your favorite class will be nerfed.

    Khalts have the same problems by the way. Thay also just do random spam of their ability every time you try to takethe initiative. But unlike stagger you can break through their defences by guard brakes. Stagger can avoid everything without any punishment and you know that for sure I've seen how you spammed that shit with back move + ghosting. Its OP as hell, cause you can't do something similar for any of other classes. And it doesn't matter if there some other methods of balance conceived in the game, cause they do not work!

    If someone managed to defeat you is because he has a better deck or because he is a waaaay more skilled than you like one of this golden or crystal players, and it will be 100% easier for him to destroy you if you switch your class, no doubt. Don't belive me - try to be a windfall for some time and you will notice how hard your life will become.
  • edited March 2018
    >>i think it would make sense not to dodge high range middle attacks

    Direct hits as I said... you can call it middle..
    You should have side move to avoid direct hits like front kick or any kind of vertical attaks and back move for the rest (sweeps basically)...
    I said this at the start...

    OP or not OP doens't matter universal moves for avoiding everything should not be existed in the game from the start, Stagger should learn how to remember the opponent deck as everybody else.

    Also it looks really stupid when your leg pass through the opponent and it doesn't count as hit.

    PS
    >>I can clearly See that you take that personally.
    Im am not taking that personallyJesus Christ! I dont even know who u are people I see you first time in my life, I dont care about everything you saying.
    I just do not understand whty I am suppose to justify my self and prove something that is not even your concern. Why do you even discussing me if I have already formulated a very obvious problem with which everyone else agreed by the way? Please remove any conversation about my person, my deck, when I play, with whom I fought etc etc from any of your discussion, and talk about problem I've defined. If you're not agree - go ahead prove your point if you want, but stop trying to blame me. I can define when the problem is me and then it is a game. So from now on lets assume that this question is closed.
  • edited March 2018
    well sure fight me again and ill use forsaken or windfall instead. just add me and give me an hour to get into it.
    i already played all styles and i have no problem to demonstrate it.
    btw no one attacked you by any means i just told my opinion to the topic and to your playstyle and not to your personality or any of that, but still you got attached so dont blame others now.
  • K bro. And as we have already found out, in general, you agree with me. So it doesn't matter.
  • Yeah i think it should be changed a bit but not because i think its overpowered but because it could be more fun than now... making each dodge harder but with better reward. The side dodges are good. But the front charge should be a charged headbutt with less range but higher damage and knockback. That would be what id change
  • edited March 2018
    I've gone through and moved posts that have nothing to do with the actual discussion. Going forward, let's keep this on-topic and avoid personal attacks.

    Thanks!
  • ABSOLVERS MUST HAVE PEACE
  • But yeah staggger back dodge is a little annoying when the opponent does nothing but spam it to avoid and interrupt yor combo but a few moves like the charged low kick has a delay that can trick people into using it a little to early and it closes the distance where you can start getting a few hits in and back up it def should be reworked a little bit
  • in the new patch notes.

    "Cannot avoid Mid/Thrust attacks anymore
    Has a Charging property"


  • I'll just leave it here...
  • edited May 2018
    the backstagger no longer avoiding mid trust was a good move but its not enough.

    they need to not avoid mid verticals to.

    but they also need a little buff to go with that nerf on something else, cause right now they run out of stamina to fast
    and strafes moves gets the last word/laugh on all thier defencive directions.
  • edited May 2018
    THDante said:

    the backstagger no longer avoiding mid trust was a good move but its not enough.

    they need to not avoid mid verticals to.

    but they also need a little buff to go with that nerf on something else, cause right now they run out of stamina to fast
    and strafes moves gets the last word/laugh on all thier defencive directions.

    that change would cause 13 more moves to hit. 2 are jumped out elbow and pushed back kick wich are used alot. it would make stagger full 2-directional i think, so in return quite a strong buff would be needed
  • edited May 2018
    Oh no 13 moves! thats way to much!, your right it should be 93 moves like roll back fist maybe.

    sarcasm ;)

    srsly stagger has everything it needs

    sides would dodge all verticals or trusts of any kind

    back would dodge all horizontals of any kind and all trusts or vertical that are high or low.
    (still the holy mother of viabe)

    front can tank anything but GBs and doubles.


    they have options for anything.

    plus they can feint them and gold link them.


    the problem with stagger is its defencives work pooly vs charges and horizontal double hits and side strafes.

    but if they make the back stagger no longer avoid vertical mids they can widen the window in exchange so that double hits are not so inconsisten to dodge, and even make the kick a stoping to deal with charges that just push trough.

    if thats not enough reduce their stamina consumption.

    and as for side strafes well no buff should be given to deal with that, the strafes them selves should be nerfed.


    cause rn staggers them selves dont like it as they see attacks go through thier body, not fun for both sides.

    here's how the convo goes with a stagger " oh shit that went right trough you " their responce " yea thats weird as hell i should have to sides or front"








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  • yepp and every usefull guardbreak will hit than. stagger abilities seem good but from what i see stagger players usally cant keep up with the rest. i most often lose against khalt, than forsaken than windfall and very very rarely against stagger. maybe the style is underrated and could be used to rule over all the others, but theres no player that can do it until now.
    i liked that the dev's choose to let mid thrusts hit
    methamos said:

    i think it would make sense not to dodge high range middle attacks because the back stumble leaves one leg vunerable in the middle. may it will be needed to make such a nerf to stagger after the next patch in wich they buff the stagger range for example.


    and i would like all the vertical moves to hit because it fits the animation.
    my main intention is that there should be a balance to such a nerf and that a small buff like, less stamina costs wont be enough.
    Against good players, stagger abilities need to be feinted alot of the time because it will get absorbed or parried or dodged and the opponent will get alot of stamina from this without much of a risk. so if a i can give suggestion for a buff.
    let stagger players gold link a feinted dodge with their next technique. that would make stagger alot more fast paced and could balance stagger without making it to simular to windfall. and in return the vertical move can hit ofc.
  • edited June 2018
    Nerf this god damn back move allready...
    Every single stagger I met - abusing it.
  • edited June 2018
    hint, look at the stagger players stance, feint your move and parry to the striking leg or absorb it or just sidedodge.
    Staggers backdodge is easy to counter. the frontcharge is actually alot stronger if you fight a good opponent.
    (front charge hits everywhere and is fast enough to interrupt most double punches and gb)

    many players dont do it but staggers backdodge is punishable with fast moves.
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