Parry Vs Dodge - 2 directions Vs 4 direcitons being required

I've played quite a bit of matches. One thing I think is very clear - parry has to be moved to 4 directions being required - just like dodge. I could spend a whole lot of time talking about how it is way more difficult to predict 4 ways versus two. I could spend a whole lot of time about the imbalance, but I am not because I think it is pretty self evident. Would like to hear opinions on the contrary as it seems, at least in my mind, to be a non-negotiable.

Comments

  • The argument I would make is that the game is months old, now, (much longer with beta) and to drastically change the game-play at this point, before ranked mode, would be catastrophic to the player-base. If every single ranked match is won by a forsaken, and the spectator mode proves how incredibly over-powered it is, then maybe a drastic revision is called for. And only sith speak in absolutes.
  • Ya... I am just not sure that making it a four directional parry is "drastic." Removing it or redoing the whole theory behind it would be drastic.
  • Doubling the directions would require a complete retraining for anyone playing forsaken. That's a drastic change that would essentially force people to start over from scratch and have to learn how to not only get the parry timing down in a new direction, but relearn how to parry every move. For people who have invested months getting parry down, I doubt that would go over well. It would also open up a can of worms that would force a revision on all other classes. There comes a time with any piece of art to take a step back and evaluate it -- basically a time to put the paint brush down, before making a drastic change that will ruin it.
  • If you don't, it becomes a cancer, which is what I think the 2 directional parry has become. We have a fundamental disagreement about the cause and effect of implementing a 4 directional parry. The forsaken will become equally challenged as windfall. In most games balance isn't as imperative, but this game is all about move and countermoves. So, balance is key. Any time you have someone who starts out with a 25% advantage on all moves, a modification has to take place. Otherwise the cancer will continue to grow.
  • Here's some variables to consider:
    1. Avoid creates a punish op AND inflicts a stamina drain
    2. Avoid duck/jump can evade attacks from the left OR right
    3. Avoid side-step re-positions the character and can therefor avoid multiple attacks (especially those that track poorly) and potentially disorient your attacker...maybe...if they suck
    4. Avoid has a larger window of success
    5. Avoid looks sweet when its successful (this ones important)
  • UNCBLOCKS said:

    Here's some variables to consider:
    1. Avoid creates a punish op AND inflicts a stamina drain
    2. Avoid duck/jump can evade attacks from the left OR right
    3. Avoid side-step re-positions the character and can therefor avoid multiple attacks (especially those that track poorly) and potentially disorient your attacker...maybe...if they suck
    4. Avoid has a larger window of success
    5. Avoid looks sweet when its successful (this ones important)

    Ok let's take these one at a time:
    1. The opportunity is no greater than parry. In fact, it is my opinion that it is less as opponents just "attack through" the avoid. Meaning, the recovery period for the opponent is shorter than if I parry them.
    2. This is irrelevant because you still have to consider 4 different directional dodges. So, while you are right, when you can jump or duck, they can still attack straight on.
    3. This advantage is very limited. The example I give here is the 360 jump spin kick. I can dodge left or right twice and it still hits me. No way that should ever happen.
    4. I disagree here total. The basic avoid timing is the same as the parry. Moreover, the double hit moves have to be time extremely accurately. Take the spinning kneel puch 360 attack. If I parry the first, it stops them in their tracks. If I try to jump the avoid, it is much more difficult as compared to parry. Good luck trying to avoid it going left or right. Same thing goes for two quick single low attacks (while this isn't quite as difficult, it is much more difficult than to parry them.
    5. I can't argue with this at all.
  • Meh, maybe so. Just throwing some variables atcha.
    I basically agree, but here's my last variable, and its a weird one.
    Come along with me on a hypothetical journey: lets first pretend that you never guess, because you're super smart and handsome. You know exactly what the next move is, so how exactly you counter it is trivial, parry or duck, you can easily do either, because again, you know exactly what the next move is. So assuming you have the absolute maddest of skillz, which ability would you use? Unless I'm mistaken, Avoid would pay out better because you get the punish AND the stamina drain. Right? Or is the stamina drain not a thing anymore?
  • That just makes it better windfall since a four directional parry is straight up stealing their groove.

    Parry just needs more lag on every defensive ability. At the point where they're both 4 directional, it just comes down to what flavor of fashion of want at a base level, but if you play competitively you just go Forsaken for the guarantees.

    Windfall's 4 directional input topped with stance advantage is its identity, there's no need to give that identity to other classes.

    Rather than change the nuances of parry we just need to redefine what it already has to make it not so brokenly powerful. Trim the excess basically.
  • First off, there is no guaranteed damage on a successful avoid like there is with a successful parry. The stamina damage is null and void due to shockwave, but that's another issue altogether. Secondly, when the universal dodge executes avoids better than windfall's, that is a problem. Let us not forget that ALL classes are blessed with the universal dodge. The big issue for me is the 100% block of ANY sort of damage that forsaken gets PLUS a stun guaranteeing big damage. Even sword/cut damage is null and void.
  • I hear what you are saying, but it is all about risk v reward. Parry has less risk more reward. Forsaken has more risk and less reward. They need to even out the risk, or give more risk to parry (which is what i think you are saying). Finally, they could give a significant boost to reward for windfall. Meaning, if i dodge the opponent has a significantly higher recovery period.
  • Agreed Rip - and to top it all off they can just attack through our avoid. Meaning, they just keep spamming quick attacks and still makes the avoid useless. At least the good ones do.
  • edited November 2017
    Forsaken doesn't have more risk. There is a vast amount of options Forsaken players can utilize to make them neigh unpunishable. Windfall (as far as I know) does not have such tech.

    There is guaranteed damage off of an avoid, the problem is its only at best 30-40. You can guarantee jabs on successful avoids that drain stamina and commit them to slow status.

    Don't misunderstand and take it as me defending parry, it is a grossly overpowered ability, but Windfall is by no means a bad ability, with its stance manipulation, stamina drain and gain, and decent window of avoid (not to be confused with the perfect avoid, you know when you dodge and it doesn't slow but you're too far from the hit for it to connect? Yea that).

    Again, parry just needs more endlag. We want it to be worse than it is now, but we don't want it to be bad or a carbon copy of something else.

    Plus even if you give it 4 directions, the punish window is less than half a second, more than enough time for them to guess another direction. It will still just be random RNG and spam fest 4 success. Raising the endlag punishes someone for spamming, and makes the extra directions trivial when if you just have two directions, as long as the punish window is big enough it isn't a problem.
  • UNCBLOCKS said:

    Meh, maybe so. Just throwing some variables atcha.
    I basically agree, but here's my last variable, and its a weird one.
    Come along with me on a hypothetical journey: lets first pretend that you never guess, because you're super smart and handsome. You know exactly what the next move is, so how exactly you counter it is trivial, parry or duck, you can easily do either, because again, you know exactly what the next move is. So assuming you have the absolute maddest of skillz, which ability would you use? Unless I'm mistaken, Avoid would pay out better because you get the punish AND the stamina drain. Right? Or is the stamina drain not a thing anymore?

    No, parry has objectively the greatest reward; the stamina drain is totally irrelevant as it stands now. Parry guarantees a Side Kick, Avoid guarantees a fast, low damage attack and only if they aren't using fast gold-chained attacks; you would kill an opponent three times faster with Parry than with Avoid.
  • windfall is not working right either often times i will avoid an attack and i should be getting the slowdown but nope.. i get elboed in the face. and you guys are missing the biggest no skiller here.. the kahlt who dont need a particular direction just a little timing and absorb till your face falls off from the lulz.. couple that with heavy armor and some charge moves and a few jabs to stop anything else.. and you will own all with your leet skillz
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