Parry is useless

I just played 6 rounds against a player dramatically lower level than me and he beat me by, no joke, pressing Square nonstop for 6 rounds. I parried him easily 10 or 15 times per round because he was so predictable, yet couldn't do any damage because he was so fast he could beat my jab and just start hammering me again. I hope Sloclap has a plan to stop players from doing this sort of thing and making Forsaken an actually viable way to play.
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  • And it just happened to me again, twice in a row I played a guy who beat me 2 matches out of 3 by doing nothing by pressing Square. Too fast to sidestep, too fast to do any damage after Parry. This happens to me every single day Sloclap, what gives
  • Third time in a row... I'm not gonna make any more posts about it but this is the Absolver experience in Combat Trials, faster player almost always wins because defensive options are insufficient.
  • No shockwave or earthquake or exhaust?
  • Qzzrbl said:

    No shockwave or earthquake or exhaust?

    Moves you can use once or twice a match don't solve the problem
  • edited September 2017
    There's also charged attacks that let you eat a punch.

    On top of that, Exhaust lasts a full 15 seconds and can almost guarantee you landing hits-- sometimes even enough for a renewed shard unless they dumped all of their points into endurance. If they're as predictable as you say, filling shards with parry shouldn't be too much of an issue. Either that or using attacks with a build-in dodge.

    I dunno what specific combo you're having trouble with, but if I as a Khalt can hold my own against fast attack spam, you as a Forsaken can too.
  • Well, have you tried Forsaken? Honestly, the parry skill needs some tuning, especially for quik attacks from the front.

    In my experience so far, those types of attacks are neigh unparryable with the Forsaken skill.

    I mean, maybe it is just bad timing on my part, however, I did nothing but attempt to parry attacks for a few hours, and found the skill very inconsistent.

    Again, that is just from my experience using Forsaken.
  • edited September 2017
    I've got a Forsaken at level ten or so, yes.

    I'd be hesitant to buff parry, given how such a skill can grant free damage as a reward for defense-- that's generally not a good way to go with fighting games, because it could cultivate a reactive turtle meta where everybody will afraid to make the first move.

    They'll just risk getting parried and punished.

    It's definitely one of those mechanics that'll take a mile if you give an inch.

    I personally think parry's in a good spot as-is.

    As a defensive tool, it's useful for breaking your opponent's flow, but it's no substitute for smart blocking and dodging.
  • Once you're in a flow of combo, a parry is the most fucking annoying thing can happen. It hurts you mentally as every combo you make can be stopped at any chain. I think Forsaken is not that hard, it's just as difficult as windfall, idk why people put it 3 star difficulty.
  • kensir said:

    Once you're in a flow of combo, a parry is the most fucking annoying thing can happen. It hurts you mentally as every combo you make can be stopped at any chain. I think Forsaken is not that hard, it's just as difficult as windfall, idk why people put it 3 star difficulty.

    Because the parry is unresponsive at the best of times.
  • edited September 2017
    Nagisawa said:

    kensir said:

    Once you're in a flow of combo, a parry is the most fucking annoying thing can happen. It hurts you mentally as every combo you make can be stopped at any chain. I think Forsaken is not that hard, it's just as difficult as windfall, idk why people put it 3 star difficulty.

    Because the parry is unresponsive at the best of times.
    Parries require you to pick which side the attack is coming from at high speed which is basically impossible against high-speed mashers whose rhythm you can't get into. Not to mention, so what if I parry him? He's just gonna go back to mashing Square and start hitting me again, because the Parry has such a small window to punish. It requires TONS of skill from me to parry a Speed player and no skill from them as long as they keep me cornered by mashing Square and defending my easily avoided Strength moves. It doesn't matter if I use my Charge moves because if I hit him once, he hits me 10 times for far more damage.

    I, as a primarily Strength move Forsaken player, have to be the constantly aware superior expert player just to beat somebody who is pressing Attack over and over with incredibly fast moves. See the problem with that?
  • edited September 2017
    Whoop.

    Done went and double-posted.
  • edited September 2017

    I, as a primarily Strength move Forsaken player, have to be the constantly aware superior expert player just to beat somebody who is pressing Attack over and over with incredibly fast moves. See the problem with that?

    It's like that with Khalt and Windfall specials as well though. Except Khalt has a shorter window, doesn't stun your opponent and doesn't work against breaks, while Windfall requires more much more familiarity with whatever moves they're coming up against to be as effective.

    There are plenty of other ways to deal with fast attack spam, from holding up your guard (fast light attacks have a negligible effect on stamina when blocked) and learning their patterns to powers like Exhaust (watch their stamina melt, it's beautiful).

    The defensive moves of the different stances are powerful tools, but they're definitely not meant to handle every situation you might come across. I'd even go so far as to say stance specials are less important than more fundamental mechanics, like blocking and dodging.

  • @helixsundown I see the problem now. It's you. You said Forsaken is bad because it can't counter fast attackers. Do you suggest that other classes's abilities counter fast attacks? Can you explain how other classes deal with fast relentless combos?
    There are few ways to deal with fast combos. The easiest one is beat fire with fire, make a fast combo yourself. Another one is using dodging property attack. Every attack open up for be attacked themselves, use those windows. Once hit, your opponent is stunned and you're on the attacking side.
    Cheers.
  • I started with a Windfall and then started to play Forsaken (Both are now level 40ish) and in my experience Avoid is considerably better. This is mainly because a successful avoid puts you in a slightly better position and because avoiding is more fluid. If you Parry in a dangerous situation (Like when you're pushed against a wall) you have so little time to take advantage of the situation that you often won't always be able to. A good Parry works similar to avoid, where you're put into a more favorable position were you can deal damage but it's harder to pull of and it's more situational. The key is not relying on Parry--You can rely on Avoid, you even rely on Absorb but you can't have the same reliance on Parry because it's less consistent, however, it is stronger than the other two when you've pulled off a good Parry. It's balanced as well as it can be and I don't think the way Parry works is broken, but the way it's played is difficult.
  • Parries require you to pick which side the attack is coming from at high speed which is basically impossible against high-speed mashers whose rhythm you can't get into. Not to mention, so what if I parry him? He's just gonna go back to mashing Square and start hitting me again, because the Parry has such a small window to punish. It requires TONS of skill from me to parry a Speed player and no skill from them as long as they keep me cornered by mashing Square and defending my easily avoided Strength moves. It doesn't matter if I use my Charge moves because if I hit him once, he hits me 10 times for far more damage.

    I, as a primarily Strength move Forsaken player, have to be the constantly aware superior expert player just to beat somebody who is pressing Attack over and over with incredibly fast moves. See the problem with that?

    It doesn't matter if it takes a half second for the parry to activate, which is usually after you've been hit. I pull the stick immediately before getting it, and the animation hasn't activated.
  • kensir said:

    @helixsundown I see the problem now. It's you. You said Forsaken is bad because it can't counter fast attackers. Do you suggest that other classes's abilities counter fast attacks? Can you explain how other classes deal with fast relentless combos?
    There are few ways to deal with fast combos. The easiest one is beat fire with fire, make a fast combo yourself. Another one is using dodging property attack. Every attack open up for be attacked themselves, use those windows. Once hit, your opponent is stunned and you're on the attacking side.
    Cheers.

    Can confirm that the only way against fast combo's usually (and sadly) is not using the style ability at all. As kahlt with lower mobility and strenght-based, all i can do is block :P Cant even use Absorb because it requires you to not hit and not be hit for a short period before being able to use it. Dodge/dash doesnt dodge enough to avoid all the kicks (even when mobility says normal) and my ability will only make me lose ALOT more health faster due to being hit after absorb because even with the fastest move i cant beat someone in a fastchaincombo.
    So yeah, unless they are doing heavier attacks on your or youre getting amazing reflexes all of a sudden i would avoid using any style ability while being chained.
    Parry imo is the strongest ability WHEN able to be used, but in the fast stunchain meta thats on right now.. none of the abilities work to well.
    I myself dont like the meta to much so im applying the tank tactic :P ....ill take a 30 hit combo to the face, then smash in their face for a hit or 1-2 and hope my health and armor will make me survive longer than them (78 blunt/35 cut armor and 1270 health, normal mobility) :pensive:
    It sorta works... unless the enemy has actual skill ;D
  • Forsaken imo is 2 stars. Windfall would be 3... If you have a fast start attack or an evade high, you can parry, then win the button mash. The SPEED attribute of moves play a big part in winning the first strike. A forsaken fighter is all about punishing the button mash, with less risk than absorb.
  • I find parry fine, but the quick moves spam, can be annoying. Quick moves should have slightly lower stamina damage.
  • edited September 2017
    I think I see the issue here: ultimately, you are trying to use a heavily timing-based technique to counter and then punish a very fast move that is being followed by yet another fast move. If what you are trying to parry seems to be followed up by something you cannot counter, you need to use another option: dodge, block, use an attack that soaks a hit or two...those are all valuable options. In Third Strike, one of the most iconic fighting games with parries as a mechanic, the parry is used on a move that would normally not be punishable to make it so, or to avoid damage/build meter. In this case, I would suggest either blocking or dodging some fast hits, then punishing them with a few of your own fast combos, then forcing them to use more heavy strikes as they try to either drain your stamina on block or catch you mid-dodge.

    Once they start using more heavy and slow attacks, parry one of those and get in a sweet combo. Adjust to them as necessary and keep them guessing on what they should do, and you should do better.

    If you need help knowing how to punish fast moves after a parry, you can actually study the 1st Marked One on the Hunted Trail, Revario. I cannot count how many times I go for really fast jabs, only to be parried and punished, even though my next move is another fast attack...which forces me to block and look for the next opening. Equip your fastest combos and give him a try with just using you fast attacks and see if helps you out.
  • I-I kinda like Parry :|
  • Qzzrbl said:

    I, as a primarily Strength move Forsaken player, have to be the constantly aware superior expert player just to beat somebody who is pressing Attack over and over with incredibly fast moves. See the problem with that?

    It's like that with Khalt and Windfall specials as well though. Except Khalt has a shorter window, doesn't stun your opponent and doesn't work against breaks, while Windfall requires more much more familiarity with whatever moves they're coming up against to be as effective.

    There are plenty of other ways to deal with fast attack spam, from holding up your guard (fast light attacks have a negligible effect on stamina when blocked) and learning their patterns to powers like Exhaust (watch their stamina melt, it's beautiful).

    The defensive moves of the different stances are powerful tools, but they're definitely not meant to handle every situation you might come across. I'd even go so far as to say stance specials are less important than more fundamental mechanics, like blocking and dodging.

    So basically the problem is that Fast moves beat Strength moves, which is exactly my point in the end. Parry isn't useful because Speed beats everything in this game.
  • edited September 2017
    Let me describe how bad the problem with defense is in Absolver.
    kensir said:

    @helixsundown I see the problem now. It's you. You said Forsaken is bad because it can't counter fast attackers. Do you suggest that other classes's abilities counter fast attacks? Can you explain how other classes deal with fast relentless combos?
    There are few ways to deal with fast combos. The easiest one is beat fire with fire, make a fast combo yourself. Another one is using dodging property attack. Every attack open up for be attacked themselves, use those windows. Once hit, your opponent is stunned and you're on the attacking side.
    Cheers.

    I'd probably maul you at this game, so chill. EVERY defensive option is bad, Parry is just worse. Fast players saying that they don't actually need a nerf despite having marginal skill and winning by mashing Square are the problem.

    Let me describe how bad the "speed beats power" issue with balance is in Absolver. I beat the hell out of at least three LEVEL 60 players today by doing hardly anything but intercepting them with Charge moves. This is because literally all they knew how to do was rush in and mash Square. They'd won every match before by pressing Square over and over and had no answer. And they STILL almost had me a few rounds. I'll be the first to admit, it takes luck and timing to overcome Attack spam. The Parry should have at least a few more stun frames or break their Stamina completely because over and over, I hit a Parry on a fast player and he just blocks so I can't hit him back, then starts mashing away anyway. Lag only makes this problem worse. And the Charge moves don't work on more skilled players after you hit them a few times. Then they can just keep mashing away.
  • ...parry is the strongest defensive counter in the game.
    in fact it is borderline OP because of how huge the parry window is.
    bad players just throw out random parries and are catching attacks without any actual timing.
  • This is due to input lag issues. Play on offline mode, after lvl 50 when the enemies are actually somewhat competent, and parry is still useless because of the rought 1/3 second delay in all input.

    This was not present on day 1 and seems to be due to a patch. Both for PS4 and PC. Trying to get them to figure this out and no response
  • I just played 6 rounds against a player dramatically lower level than me and he beat me by, no joke, pressing Square nonstop for 6 rounds.

    being able to continually attack is a core fundamental of this game. it's intended.
    just learn how to combat it.
    problem solved

  • I think we can all agree that with the exception of stagger and maybe windfall, the recovery window after a defensive move is too long for it to have any impact, since it's about the same as the opponent. Hence, event if all chains start with the quickest possible move, it's still not guaranteed to be able to hit your opponent after a successful parry/absorb/dodge and it breaks the flow of combat for you as much as for your opponent.

    Windfall avoids this a bit with the little slowing effect it applies on a successful last-moment dodge, and stagger has the counter-attack built into the defensive move.
  • this can be answered by GG as in Git Gud, learn to punish after a parry, if you are losing to someone mashing square you are just plain bad..
  • edited September 2017
    I've been fighting many forsaken players who got heavy hits in me after successful parries (I was holding the block button the entire time after each initial parry) so clearly it is viable. Just practice or decide the fighting style isn't for you and make a switch. After trying all 4 styles I finally found stagger to be my home:D
  • It's a tricky manoeuvre not helped by much visual feedback (un like the absorb or the dodge).

    Set the 'mouse action sensitive' to much lower and it becomes easier and then it's just up to you to predict when to use it.
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