What should be the highest priority after 3v3 is released.

edited December 2017 in General Discussions
Attack balance

The reason being that most attacks are severely outclassed by others. The only counters to which are within the same small set of attacks. Leading to almost every one who's decent at the game only using that small set of attacks if they want to win (and everyone wants to win). As of right now, if you don't use these attacks, you'll be at a huge disadvantage based on your deck alone. Your list of optimal strategies will diminish greatly against them, and you'll be more predictable because of it. Mainly because their attacks counter yours more often, and you're unable to pressure them to the same extent as they can to you. You're defensive options are much lower since you can't counter some attacks. Leading to less options both offensively and defensively.

When the majority of your chances of winning a fight come down to the deck that you've built, of course every ones deck includes the strongest attacks. There is an element of player skill involved, but that changes when fighting a decent opponent. At that point it's which player can read the other better. When one player has a higher chance of countering whatever their opponent throws out, those reads are less risky. Leading to one player being significantly more predictable, and by extension easier to read based heavily on what attacks they have in their deck.

TL;DR: A skilled player can defeat a meta deck with a rubbish one, but they have to be significantly better than their opponent in order to do so. The reason why is because versitile attacks pigeonhole the viable countermeasures into a small variety of equally versitile attacks. Causing the vast majority of decks to use the same small set of attacks in order to compete with each other at a high level of play.

Comments

  • Hey Velindian! I've seen you posting a lot of great stuff here on the forums, so I'd like to say thank you for more excellent feedback!

    I'll pass this to the team as well, though I can't promise they'll directly reply, but either way, I'll make sure it's seen.

    Thank you again, and please keep it coming!
  • I agree with that, some variety for deckbuilding would be appreciated. Its not just that some attacks have the same speed and damage but additional effects when compared to others, some moves do exactly the same but better.

    A good example would be Jab (44 damage) and Direct Punch (47 damage), both have the same speed, reach and stance direction, but one is just better.
    Another example would be Hammer Kick (116 damage) and Jump Out Elbow (117 damage). Hammer Kick is slower, has shorter reach but is supposed to be more powerful (according to the power bar when comparing those two) but somehow does less damage even if its just by 1 damage. There is no point in choosing moves that are just outright inferior in all aspects.
    In my opinion stagger moves also need some reworking. Almost all of them have horrible scaling but still do more damage than most moves.

    Reducing the base damage for moves and making attribute scaling more important would probably help a lot.
  • Calb said:


    Another example would be Hammer Kick (116 damage) and Jump Out Elbow (117 damage). Hammer Kick is slower, has shorter reach but is supposed to be more powerful (according to the power bar when comparing those two) but somehow does less damage even if its just by 1 damage. There is no point in choosing moves that are just outright inferior in all aspects.
    In my opinion stagger moves also need some reworking. Almost all of them have horrible scaling but still do more damage than most moves.

    Reducing the base damage for moves and making attribute scaling more important would probably help a lot.

    I think a better comparison for Hammer Kick would be Front Kick (same stance category and better in every way).
    Stagger moves for the most part seem to have their gold linking frames appear too early in the animation. Leading to their follow ups being way too fast, and looking really janky. I think stagger attacks should deal more damage OR have more range as similar speed attacks, but have much longer recovery time. Right now most of them are outright better than other options in the same category, in addition to being harder to read from startup.

    And don't even get me started on Backfall Strike or Donkey Slap...
  • Either a voice chat or normal chat its all a bit weird now.
    Also this game needs alot more players it feels like maybe im just to low lvl for now a indication of how many ppl are online would be nice are there weekly updates or do you guys just try to get them out asap.
    How about an area where players can meet up,trade,fight
    Ive got no sense in how long it takes to make things like that but this game has great aspects to be much larger and more fun il glady support this Game more.
    I hope to see it grow
  • From what I've played (40h, more or less) there is the drunken stance players that ALWAYS destroy me 0-3, all their moves are SUPER far reaching, they hit from whatever angles you come at them from quicker, incredibly hard to predict and dodge properly, and super hard on the stamina bar to block.

    What grinds my gear though is when I see lower level then me with better gear that cost more resources than I've ever salvaged yet and they already got a school with all those moves... I'm only just halfway through the circle that will unlock the schools. like how did they do it?
  • Velindian said:

    Calb said:


    Another example would be Hammer Kick (116 damage) and Jump Out Elbow (117 damage). Hammer Kick is slower, has shorter reach but is supposed to be more powerful (according to the power bar when comparing those two) but somehow does less damage even if its just by 1 damage. There is no point in choosing moves that are just outright inferior in all aspects.
    In my opinion stagger moves also need some reworking. Almost all of them have horrible scaling but still do more damage than most moves.

    Reducing the base damage for moves and making attribute scaling more important would probably help a lot.

    I think a better comparison for Hammer Kick would be Front Kick (same stance category and better in every way).
    Stagger moves for the most part seem to have their gold linking frames appear too early in the animation. Leading to their follow ups being way too fast, and looking really janky. I think stagger attacks should deal more damage OR have more range as similar speed attacks, but have much longer recovery time. Right now most of them are outright better than other options in the same category, in addition to being harder to read from startup.

    And don't even get me started on Backfall Strike or Donkey Slap...
    Yet high level players use Hammer Kick sometimes. While I'll agree that their team seemed to have copy/pasted certain moves and stats with different animations maybe to expand the move list while saving on time, but its still viable to have very similar moves that attack from different directions, or hit different hitboxes (high, mid, or low), OR that have different start-up, active, recovery frames from the other.

    For example, perhaps Hammer kick, Jump out elbow, and/or Front Kick are quite similar in most aspects but Hammer Kick is slower. Well given that it's quite beneficial to purposely mis-time and or insert oddly timed attacks to throw your opponent off rhythm, it does become useful to actually use Hammer Kick and/or Axe Kick for that matter.

    So while there are indeed several moves that were basically copy/pasted, and indeed just sit right next to each other in the move list, I think we need to have a better understanding of all the moves before we start asking for severe reworks.

    Some moves could be looked at because they are pretty universally agreed upon to be slightly unbalanced. Grab punch being a big one but it only needs a small adjustment to maybe damage or its speed.
  • Dialectic said:

    Velindian said:

    Calb said:


    Another example would be Hammer Kick (116 damage) and Jump Out Elbow (117 damage). Hammer Kick is slower, has shorter reach but is supposed to be more powerful (according to the power bar when comparing those two) but somehow does less damage even if its just by 1 damage. There is no point in choosing moves that are just outright inferior in all aspects.
    In my opinion stagger moves also need some reworking. Almost all of them have horrible scaling but still do more damage than most moves.

    Reducing the base damage for moves and making attribute scaling more important would probably help a lot.

    I think a better comparison for Hammer Kick would be Front Kick (same stance category and better in every way).
    Stagger moves for the most part seem to have their gold linking frames appear too early in the animation. Leading to their follow ups being way too fast, and looking really janky. I think stagger attacks should deal more damage OR have more range as similar speed attacks, but have much longer recovery time. Right now most of them are outright better than other options in the same category, in addition to being harder to read from startup.

    And don't even get me started on Backfall Strike or Donkey Slap...
    Yet high level players use Hammer Kick sometimes. While I'll agree that their team seemed to have copy/pasted certain moves and stats with different animations maybe to expand the move list while saving on time, but its still viable to have very similar moves that attack from different directions, or hit different hitboxes (high, mid, or low), OR that have different start-up, active, recovery frames from the other.

    For example, perhaps Hammer kick, Jump out elbow, and/or Front Kick are quite similar in most aspects but Hammer Kick is slower. Well given that it's quite beneficial to purposely mis-time and or insert oddly timed attacks to throw your opponent off rhythm, it does become useful to actually use Hammer Kick and/or Axe Kick for that matter.

    So while there are indeed several moves that were basically copy/pasted, and indeed just sit right next to each other in the move list, I think we need to have a better understanding of all the moves before we start asking for severe reworks.

    Some moves could be looked at because they are pretty universally agreed upon to be slightly unbalanced. Grab punch being a big one but it only needs a small adjustment to maybe damage or its speed.
    GP, BTK, and JLK all need some nerf (Probably Speed, Speed, and Hit Location respectively), and I'm glad that we agree on GP being straight up broken. However, if an attack has a part of it that is objectively worse, another part of it needs to be slightly better. I'd be perfectly fine if Hammer Kick was slightly faster due to it's shorter range (or if Front Kick only hit low for it's longer range), but it being ever so slightly slower and shorter doesn't contribute anything. if the person on the receiving end is good with their style's defensive, the couple frame difference is useless for throwing off their timing.

    Also, Jump Out Elbow has higher recovery frames, and a less disjointed hitbox (Since your character's hurtbox is closer despite having the same range from the distance covered). Balancing out the slow jump and slightly better damage. Hammer Kick is slightly slower point blank, has a hitbox that lingers less, and has notably less range. Even though the differences are small, they make a huge difference in versatility when you consider spacing.
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