Gravity is too good for a 2 shard ability

edited November 2017 in General Gameplay
Why do I say this?

Compared to Earthquake: It can hit enemies in any dodge state other than the I-frames of the manual dodge (earthquake can be jumped over and I-framed), It applies high blockstun and stamina damage when blocked (earthquake is greatly weakened in both these aspects when blocked), It has longer range, higher hitstun when it lands, and if it isn't I-framed you'll always receive the weight dubuff (as it does not get nulified by blocking). Sure, it doesn't have hyper armor like earthquake, but it casts fast enough to where even at close range it's easy to execute. The only thing earthquake does better is deal with multiple enemies, as gravity is single target. However, just because it can only be casted on one person, it shouldn't be this much stronger.

Earthquake is a well balanced 2 shard ability, but it's overshadowed by gravity in almost every aspect. Earthquake has many counters, and it doesn't guarantee the the most powerful attacks. Meanwhile, Gravity is super effective at both offense and defense whilst having little risk for its use. Earthquake can be hard countered by: A jumping state, being blocked, stopping attacks, breaking attacks, I-frames, and Gravity (lol). Gravity can only be fully avoiding with I-frames, and the reward is much greater when it lands.

It just boggles my mind how this thing hasn't had an increased shard cost or a nerfed yet.

Comments

  • Gravity does seem like a must have ability in 1vs1 fights but I dont see how to change this spell without ruining it. The cast time is long enough so that you cant use it in the middle of the fight and if you are too far away you might not profit from it so its not an overpowered ability.
    I think the main reason because gravity is better than earthquake is because gravity focuses on a single target, like you said, and the only mode right now is 1vs1. Earthquake (and maybe other underused spells) might become much better in 3vs3, or it becomes a total disaster because you might end up hitting your own teammates aswell, we will see.
  • edited November 2017
    Calb said:

    Gravity does seem like a must have ability in 1vs1 fights but I dont see how to change this spell without ruining it.

    The ways I would change it would probably be decreasing the Hitstun on block to be equal to Earthquake's when blocked, and making a ducking state negate Gravity entirely by bracing oneself against the ground (similar to how jumping avoids Earthquake because you leap over it). The slightly slower cast time balances out the slow speed debuff.

    I also think Earthquake needs to have higher hitstun over all (but still barley lower than Gravity).
  • Negating gravity by ducking does sound reasonably considering all the ways you can negate earthquake but i am not sure about the other changes.
    The cast speed of gravity is already slow enough, I often run around with 5 shards because I cant use gravity in a range where I can make use of the stun because most attacks can interrupt it when the enemy is too close while earthquake is fast enough to be used even when pressured. I think you can even counter an attack with earthquake just like with shockwave, so the aoe aspect of earthquake is not the only advantage it has over gravity.
    I dont think the stun should be closer to gravity either since its much faster. To me, earthquake and gravity are like jab and sidekick, quick and weak vs slow and strong. If the stun of earthquake gets better then it will probably just switch with gravity and be equipped by everyone.

  • Calb said:


    The cast speed of gravity is already slow enough, I often run around with 5 shards because I cant use gravity in a range where I can make use of the stun because most attacks can interrupt it when the enemy is too close while earthquake is fast enough to be used even when pressured.

    I dont think the stun should be closer to gravity either since its much faster. To me, earthquake and gravity are like jab and sidekick, quick and weak vs slow and strong. If the stun of earthquake gets better then it will probably just switch with gravity and be equipped by everyone.

    I didn't say to slow down Gravity, I said it's fine where it is since it has a debuff attached to it that lands on block. Which, like you said, makes it a stronger but slower stun.

    I think the hitstun of Earthquake on hit should remain the same, but against a guarding opponent it should deal around the same that it does to a non-guarding one. Considering Gravity still has insane hitstun when blocked in addition to a 5 second slow speed debuff. Gravity will still have higher hitstun overall, but blocking Earthquake would be a soft counter instead of a hard counter (like Gravity in that blocking only reduces hitstun slghtly).

    It'd make Earthquake and Gravity pretty much on par with eachother. main differences being the opposite evasion counter (jumping and ducking), the slower cast time of Gravity (balanced out by debuff, and longer range), and the Hyper armor from Earthquake allowing it to tank a quick attack (balanced out by the lack of an additional offensive effect [Gravity's slow weight debuff]).

    Gravity would still be used if Earthquake had longer shield stun, since it already has insane hitstun (when blocked or not). In addition to the weight class debuff, and stamina damage on block. In general, one is slower with a stronger stun and a bit more range (Gravity), but they each have an equal number of counters (fast jabs vs. stopping attacks, ducking vs. jumping attacks, and I-frames).

    Fun fact: both counter eachother depending on distance (closer making Earthquake hit before Gravity, and long range Gravity breaking Earthquake's hyper armor).
  • It seems I misunderstood some points.
    I agree with the suggestions against blocking opponents but that combined with avoiding gravity by ducking still wouldnt set the counters for earthquake and gravity equal. I am not sure if remember correctly but I think you can even absorb earthquake (like shockwave) and punish that. Its rare to see earthquake right now so its hard to confirm.
    Maybe adding guard breaking properties to earthquake would help there, but that could also be overkill when combined with the other suggestions.
  • edited November 2017
    Calb said:

    I am not sure if remember correctly but I think you can even absorb earthquake (like shockwave) and punish that. Its rare to see earthquake right now so its hard to confirm.
    Maybe adding guard breaking properties to earthquake would help there, but that could also be overkill when combined with the other suggestions.

    For whatever reason Earthquake and Shockwave are stopping attacks. Whilst Gravity is a breaking attack. I think what would work better is to make Earthquake parry like Shockwave does. That way it's encouraged to use it more defensively, whilst Gravity is encouraged to be used offensively. I'd rather them (Including Gravity) be stopping attacks since Kahlt is too easy to counter with them. Windfall would already be able to avoid both by jumping and ducking, so I think it'd be fine if Kahlt could Absorb them all.
  • Giving earthquake a parry effect does sound good but I dont agree with changing gravity into a stopping attack, I prefer it the way it is now. Kahlt is not easier countered by that than forsaken, so there is no need for a change if kahlt is the reason for it.
  • Hey everyone! I'd like to thank you all very much for having such a great discussion on Gravity and how it compares to Shockwave. I'll be sure to pass your feedback on to the team, and while I can't promise a direct response from them, it'll most certainly be seen.

    Please keep it up!
  • Well, they nerfed gravity into the ground so I hope everyone is happy. :wink:
  • Dialectic said:

    Well, they nerfed gravity into the ground so I hope everyone is happy. :wink:

    It's on the same level as Earthquake now. Unlike before where 70% of players had it because it was better in almost every way.
  • Velindian said:

    Dialectic said:

    Well, they nerfed gravity into the ground so I hope everyone is happy. :wink:

    It's on the same level as Earthquake now. Unlike before where 70% of players had it because it was better in almost every way.
    It's junk. Earthquake stuns the enemy into a forced block, which is good for delivering a nice front kick to deplete their stamina. Gravity just gets dodged, blocked, absorbed, and shat on constantly and does virtually nothing. It went from useful to "Well, guess everyone should just use shockwave and heal." I know of one guy that uses Exhaust to some effect and that's King Jonny. He uses it like he used Gravity before which is to hit your stamina in the middle of his offensive string so he can break your guard or force you to dodge into his Uramawashi. But it's only a MEH move.

    So I guess the discussion I'm curious about here is should powers all be MEH? Or should they all be as useful as Shockwave?
  • Dialectic said:

    Velindian said:

    Dialectic said:

    Well, they nerfed gravity into the ground so I hope everyone is happy. :wink:

    It's on the same level as Earthquake now. Unlike before where 70% of players had it because it was better in almost every way.
    It's junk. Earthquake stuns the enemy into a forced block, which is good for delivering a nice front kick to deplete their stamina. Gravity just gets dodged, blocked, absorbed, and shat on constantly and does virtually nothing. It went from useful to "Well, guess everyone should just use shockwave and heal." I know of one guy that uses Exhaust to some effect and that's King Jonny. He uses it like he used Gravity before which is to hit your stamina in the middle of his offensive string so he can break your guard or force you to dodge into his Uramawashi. But it's only a MEH move.

    So I guess the discussion I'm curious about here is should powers all be MEH? Or should they all be as useful as Shockwave?
    I kinda wish they were just removed. With stamina regen/player HP increased to compensate, and attacks rebablanced to be closer in effectiveness. If you have a versatile deck, you don't even need abilities to deal/negate pressure. If there were more decks that didn't need to rely on abilities to be on par with others, the game would be fine without abilities.

    If they are to stay, they should be about as counterable as Earthquake. Gravity actually needs a slight hitstun buff on direct hit. The stun while blocking is fine where it is right now.
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