PVP - Remove the Cliffs and Library Arenas

Titanium_rabbit

I want to start off saying I think this game is great; I love the fact that I can build my fighting style and modify it quickly between fights. I like testing myself against others to see if I can figure out and plan a better combat deck and a better fight than the next person. I like that almost no two players are going to have the same style. I want to beat someone because I built a better combat deck or I out thought/fought them. I don't want to win or lose by using the environment.

I can understand why you have the cliff and library arenas in the game. They evoke the thoughts of many martial arts movies where the hero fights precariously along cliffsides or moving quickly up and down the stairs. Excellent in theory, in reality, it's an entirely different story.

The cliffside fights just end up with players spamming shockwave to try and knock someone over the edge or seeing who can force the other person over the edge. There is little to no skill involved as the majority of players don't want to fight they want to push you over the edge to get a quick win. Since the camera is not perfect it's also not always easy to tell where you are in relation to the edge; it's not like real life where you can use your peripheral vision and spatial awareness.

The library has that issue along with the stairs issue. I've yet to see a game where collisions are involved that can properly handle elevation changes correctly. Having played WOW for years and seeing as they couldn't get it right every time I'm not upset but I don't want to deal with that headache when I'm trying to fight. On top of the elevation change issues is the camera issues, I don't know how many times in the game and that arena I've been close to a wall and had the camera go all wonky on me. I don't want to lose a fight because my camera is making it difficult to see when to dodge or what attack is coming.

The game is an open world fighting game, make PVP the same thing. Leave us out in the open and let us fight each other and see who is the best fighter, not who can best use their environment against the other. I know many would say the best fighters would be able to use their surroundings to their advantage and that is true, in real life. In a game, it comes down to gaming the system to win and not to show you are the better fighter.

Kuta_of_kismet

...So you want these maps less often? Salt.

Mowley97

I agree with this. The arenas with cliff faces are in my opinion stupid. I can handle jab spam and everything but on these maps I am always left dodging around the player to get away from a cliff and then i am backed against another one only for another round of rinse and repeat. I enjoy the game immensely and accept losing to a fight on solid ground easily. But, to be shockwaved of an edge after I spent the last minute painstakingly timing parrys, dodges and blocks only to have them shockwave me off a cliff is very very annoying.

Mustu

Honestly I just kill myself every time I see those stages. Really is not worth spending a minute trying to dodge around pits while also taking someone's health down only to get shockwaved off a cliff. Pits don't need to be in PVP.

Bard

I've fought many times on these maps. Mostly lost, won a few. I've always recognized myself being at fault for allowing my Absolver into the situation of being beaten be straight cheese. After learning the maps a bit and getting a feel for dodging though, I haven't been thrown off in quite a while. Spatial awareness is possible in this game. As for the camera angles, try fighting with your back against a wall. It is hectic and chaotic and sometimes terrifying. I think they captured that perfectly.

Qzzrbl

It can be argued that positioning and taking advantage of terrain are important aspects of this game.

DemonRavage

PVP ring outs are a horrible idea in any fighting game. There are 2 types of players in ring out stages. "Abusers": These players absolutely will take advantage of the ring out. The will even create character builds to push it to its limits. Considering that attacks that hit guards still pushes players back, this is pretty close to "cheesing" And "Honorable players": These players will actually actively avoid ring outs at all costs. They will dodge away when close to edges and will even drop combos if it might knock their opponent off and allow them to get away from the edge. These are the very players you want in the game from a developer/publisher view point. These players give you the exciting matches that people love to see.

I feel like ring outs are completely fine for PvE. You don't expect AI to be honorable, nor go out of their way to get the ring out. In multi PvP it is arguable that ring outs are okay to fight against ganking. But in 1v1, stages should not be built with ring outs in mind. You only have to play a few rounds on the library to see that most players will go to an open area to allow for the fight to actually take place.

If you really feel like ring outs have a place in 1v1, fine, but make sure the main fight area is large enough for the fight to happen. It should take a lot of pressure or the opponent being completely unaware to get ring out. If even the best space is too small even 2 "honorable" players will get ring out. I had a duel that was a great example of this problem. It was the Library, we were both Forsaken fighters. We would both land 2-3 hit combos and parry each other. Exchanging blows like the trailers. But we both kept ring outing the other. We went to the fifth round but only one was fought to KO. All the others were ring outs. I did not like it, and even though there is no chat. It was obvious that they did not like it either since both of us did "sad" emotes on ring outs. We skipped the rematch just because of the stage.

badeyebill

The only time I don't request a rematch is when its one of those maps. Instant death from falling is no fun. I also have to keep letting off people so I don't knock them off.(unless they're trying to cheese me, then it becomes a battle of shockwaves.)
I would like to see some pvp maps with cliffs but not intsta-death. Multi-tiered levels could be cool, just far enough to take maybe a third of you health.

Des1re

What prevents you from using terrain and pushing enemies? I like these maps, because I'm one of those assholes that push you to deep. You can't use terrain and positioning on it? Sorry, but it your problem.

Qzzrbl

DemonRavage said:

PVP ring outs are a horrible idea in any fighting game.

Why is that, exactly?

DemonRavage said:

We would both land 2-3 hit combos and parry each other. Exchanging blows like the trailers. But we both kept ring outing the other. We went to the fifth round but only one was fought to KO. All the others were ring outs.

Sounds like you guys could stand to learn how to position yourselves properly.

If people can learn how to read animations for a bunch of moves in order to perfectly time windfall dodges, they can learn how to not step too close to absolute certain death.

That said, some sort of map voting system would be pretty cool.

Titanium_rabbit

Des1re said:

What prevents you from using terrain and pushing enemies? I like these maps, because I'm one of those assholes that push you to deep. You can't use terrain and positioning on it? Sorry, but it your problem.

Nothing prevents me from doing it except I want to actually win by being better than the person I'm playing. Not better at "cheesing" someone off the map, better at actually playing my character and building my deck. Like I said in my initial comment and others have state, I'll pull back on combo's and stop attacks to back up so I don't push someone off, I could do it but where is the fun in that.

Rugglesks

agreed i feel terrible when i win at this maps from hitting some one off the map

Hi_Vans

To put the players out of their comfort zone adding environment danger sounds cool on the paper, but it's definitly quite annoying. Every time I see one of these map I'm like "-_-

istareatthesun

I don't like them either, though I blame my failures on myself. I just want the fights to be about fighting the other guy, don't really care about fighting the terrain in PvP.

_kamhi

There is another problem with those maps. If you make an agreement with enemy you just rush down to your death. Both getting really fast item drops, character xp and gamemode levels.

gimo

I manage to win on these maps frequently enough despite constantly being faced with cheesers and I still say these maps are not good for the game. I actively avoid pushing off my opponents. I especially avoid pushing off cheesers because I am better than you and I will prove it. What's important for a multiplayer game is to ensure as many people as possible are having fun. These maps do not incite fun, they promote cheese tactics and even cheating.

Cheating: I have received offers to "boost" by other players a handful of times; as in taking turns jumping off a cliff for easy level ups. Of course I would refuse and leave the match, but I doubt everyone would choose to do so.

Cheesing: Yes, positioning and being aware of your surroundings are tactical aspects of the game, but the game isn't fun when your opponent is using their Shockwave (which is the least expensive ability to activate) every chance they get because they want an easy win. Even when you win, the game becomes a chore.

BTTrinity

I completely agree with this post, they take away from the fact this is supposed to be a skill based-fighting game. Nothing so skill based about shock-waving me 20 meters off a cliff

Royaji

Seems like I am a minority here but I actually like the cliffs arena. For me it adds another's layer of complexity to the fight. Having to think about your positioning and adjust to avoid being knocked off feels pretty cool.

I tend to have thoughts like "hey, I've already blocked four strikes in a row so I am probably too close to the edge. Might be a good idea to dodge and reposition before they try to kick me off or shockwave..." And being knocked off definitely feels better than being forced to the wall and losing because camera has decided to do some weird stuff.

And yes, if my opponent is not thinking about positioning I will kick him off. Not with a shockwave (don't even have it slotted, it's just too situational and useless on other maps) but with a nicely timed heavy attack. It is actually pretty skillful if you ask me.

I would probably vouch for more environmental hazards like spikes and trapdoors on colloseum or something along those lines. Really helps to keep the combat a bit less stale.