until there is some balance with the styles im out..

R3kk3N

im sick of fighting this blue boy kahlt cheese, this is the simplest style in the game and while you gave them weaknesses to guard breaking moves you cannot put 16 guard breaks in a deck so that being said im tired of how OP this is and it seems most people are using it now so im out

methamos

do you play on ps4? because on pc it doesnt seem to be that big of a deal

PBLeadWizard

I find khalt players pretty rare, at least on PC. I will admit, most khalts I do come across are fast spam spider monkeys, but I see no reason why a skilled forsaken or windfall wouldn't beat those decks. Also double-hits. Those work too. Especially the horizontal ones

methamos

y but khalt seems pretty strong. the only reason i wouldnt say khalt is op is that i think forsaken is just as op or that windfall and stagger seem to be easier to fight.

insight

Someone who's bad at avoiding with windfall (or just having a bad day) is very easy to fight, because avoids are the biggest gamble -- there's 3 wrong choices, vs a 50/50 (forsaken) or 100/0 (khalt). I haven't played stagger enough to comment, but it seems to be similar, that it's easier to walk into attacks.

UNCBLOCKS

This is why I'm always preaching REALISM; its the perfect balancing agent. Do people "absorb" hits in real combat? Yes, but only light attacks - Boom, solved, all heavy attacks break absorb. Do people "parry" attacks in real combat? Of course they do, but only if the attack is heavy enough to put the attacker off balance but no so heavy as to break through the parry - bam, solved, light attacks can be parried with a small counter window, medium with a large window and heavy attacks break through. And "Avoid"? Yes, attacks can be avoided; but its dangerous because slipping or rolling into a punch or kick can be devastating; solution: avoid works against all attacks but avoiding incorrectly and being hit does extra damage. That's how reality balances these moves and the further these updates stray from whats real and believable, the more people will become frustrated and complain.

insight

You forgot one thing though: not all heavy attacks could be blocked, either, but would require footwork (jamming or stepping out of range) to stop. You could interrupt a spin kick, for example, by jamming it, but there would be no way to block it by holding the arms up and taking the damage, either, once it's momentum is going. So the ideas of realism are good, but they are for a totally different game.

Absolver, as I see it, is more about gambling. The fact that there are ways to stack the deck -- either through moves that exploit frame advantage (like the back trip kick or jump light kick), or by choosing a class that is easier is where the problem lies. The more the game is balanced, the more a higher-staked gamble -- like the Windfall avoid -- should be rewarded and / or punished more, but a lower stakes gamble -- the khalt absorb -- should be rewarded less, because it's punished less.

methamos

i think UNCBLOCKS has a point there. Making the game more believable and balanced could leed to alot less distress but i also got some issues with it.
1. Balance , cool techniques and realism wont match. For example : stagger moves and all the tripped kicks realistic
2. Heavy attacks arent necessarily unparryable. for example an axe kick is very much parryable with one arm.
3. since there wouldnt be obvious borders what you can parry/absorb or not, everyone had to find it out and its fucked up if you get hit and you dont know if you missed the timing or the move isnt blockable. this would make absolver even harder for new players.

So if we suggest something like a realism nerf/buff to defensive abilities we should infer:
1. its limited to a specific type of moves
2. it should be teached in the tutorial

y0shimitsunokai

PvP is just unbalanced altogether they need to overhaul pvp then just make some extensive pve activities like giant group fights because learning to fight 4 strong npc time your ability manage stamnia dodge effectively that’s where I see the game shines and people could actually see what the developers want people to get from the game but I think the pvp aspect isn’t getting to people

UNCBLOCKS

Fair points; though some issues with enforcing stricter realism could be resolved (absolved?), the ultimate result would be a severe de-flashing of style. Well, actually, maybe not; having realistic absorb/parry/avoid mechanics isn't necessarily broken by the occasional Donkey Kick. As for parrying heavy attacks, you're absolutely right, real fighters parry heavy kicks all the time but it hurts like a mother$#^%er! So why not stay on team realism and say that heavy attacks CAN be parried but only do portion of their damage (20% seem fair?). As for knowing whats what, why not have all heavy attacks glow similar to Charge or Guard Break attacks (yes, I realize glowing limbs isn't realistic but I'm trying to split the difference). I get that these changes will never take and that players don't really care about realism, but I'm not necessarily arguing for strict, planet Earth variety realism (I love the magical elements in the game) I'm just arguing for realistic... math, I guess. Lets just let physics do the balancing, that's all I'm saying.

methamos

No need to be demotivated about your suggestions UNCBLOCKS.
There are already quite alot suggestions that made it from the forum into the game, like the discussions about balance and the weak stopping moves and strong stagger moves.

imo To connect physics directly do balancing however doesnt work since the those moves arent balanced in real life.
Still Its possible to balance some techniques while making them more realistic, just not to the extend of balance equals realism id say.

insight

I like the idea of parrying a heavy attack causing damage. Problem is with balance. What is a khalt doing while they are absorbing? Are they phasing into another dimension or something, or are they somehow taking the damage and deflecting it? If they are magically phasing away from damage, then a heavy or light attack wouldn't make a difference -- because it's fantasy, regardless. So forcing the other classes into realism while khalt exists wouldn't work. I think what you're describing is another game -- a Bushido Blade type game based on kung fu -- which I would absolutely play.

UNCBLOCKS

I've never imagined the Khalt ability to be magical. The player's body language makes me think they are just bracing themselves against the attack; just sort of tensing up to "absorb" the hit, like flexing your abs to take a body shot. That's why its realistic that the Khalt can attack very quickly after an absorb, they're still open in their fighting stance.

insight

That makes sense for a body blow, but how can you absorb a spin kick to the back of the head, or a leg breaker to the knee by bracing against the attack? More tension in the leg on a leg break would be worse than having an empty leg, or one off the ground, and tension in the neck or shoulders against a hit to the back of the head would be devastating. The only way I can see absorb working -- and why there's a blue flash -- is if its something dimensional, like a partial fold. None of the classes are 100% realistic, though. Jumping over a kick is somewhat silly, for example.

UNCBLOCKS

Oh, I totally agree. That's why I said in my initial response that Heavy Attacks should break Absorb; that shit would get you killed! And yeah sure, folding, but I would prefer absorb work in a semi-logical way; "cuz magic" is a lazy mechanic, especially because "absorb" is a perfectly reasonable mechanic without magic. It's the brawler ability, eat a few hits to land big shots of your own; all you've got to do is extend the length of the ability slightly and have attacks over a certain damage threshold break the ability. It would be a great fast-spam counter, just tank through a bunch a fast spam to land a huge hay-maker. A totally legit, realistic solution. I mean, if somebody tried to hit me with the "Knife Hand" attack, I would just walk right through it and smash their face in = Absorb

UNCBLOCKS

Side-Comment = Introducing "Poise" to this game would solve a lot of balance problems

R3kk3N

im over giving out suggestions in this game.. if i play i play if i dont i dont.. i no longer care.. they had months to get this stuff right.. do you know they actually gave kahlt a 6 frame advantage after a successful absorb once upon a time.. yeah so their views on balance is a bit askew. Kahlt is reigning champ right now and the only people that say kahlt isnt, is kahlt players, which happen to be a good percentage of our population.. so for every one of these posts.. you get 3 or 4 people saying its not.. i wish i had video recording software to show clips on how low level players can totally get away with murder using kahlt.. the anti punish style.. there is so much forgiveness in a misfired absorb. if forsaken misfires.. well you know the sound that comes next is equivalent of slapping meat as a foot connects to the face. Dont even get me started on windfall and how that buggy ass shit is still buggy... you gotta hit the window someone tells me.. oh ok gotcha.. uhh what happens when i have lag vs the other player.. there is no window only a crack.. if that is even how it works.. i wouldnt know.. it barely fires the slow.. but again.. who cares right.. i mean blue boys are the bread and butter of this game, and someone is always going to offer ways to beat them.. yet.. it never works.. give kahlt parry strike and host and you will never touch them i swear to god

methamos

its good to talk about problems but i think youre over acting this a bit R3kk3n,

from what ur saying khalt sounds like a free card to beat every other style but actually i played more than 500hours with stagger on pc and even so khalt is very strong, my experience was that forsaken players have no problem keeping up and good windfall or stagger players will also beat a less experienced khalt player 90% of the time.
imo a buff to windfall and stagger would be enough.

R3kk3N

whats your name in game

methamos

the same as here
im playing on pc eu

HA1L_C3ASAR

About absorb, it's not really about how well you could realistically "tank the blow" but more about being able to mentally tolerate the pain of a hit.

As I understand it the game basically takes place in a simulated world, in which you enter through the use of your mask.

And when reading how the styles are described, I believe that when the Kahlt style is being described the game tells you that "it focuses on strength and vitality".
And both of those attributes say that the body is not as important as the power of the mind.

What I mean by all of this is that you shoudn't really expect that much reality from the game.
But everyone has their opinions and that's ok.

(Also buff to windfall and forsaken? Wut?)

: )

Jeantall

......Since when was this game ever meant to be realistic?
A:Its a fantasy game in which you can fold things(including yourself) Into a extra dimension.....I think using Ki/essence or whatever it is to not FLINCH form a attack is a little on the strange side to cry about
b.How would you fix Khalt and still keep it viable? Its carries risk just like the other 3 stances and in fact certain moves are anti khalt while their are no such moves for windfal,stagger or forsaken.
3.Avoid moves,fast combo's,red attacks and double attacks punish the style fairly well.

Everyone has a style they hate....for example windfall users piss me off to no end so perhaps your just personally weak to Khalt???