Is it time to nerf stagger double hit moves yet?
I get what stagger is supposed to be, a confusing mess of flailing limbs that overwhelm and the opponent. Double hit moves do portray this theme pretty well, but why are the stagger double hit moves so good??
Lets break this down:
Whirlwind Doublepunch:
Pros:
-Double hit, so no khalt or charge attacks, awkward to dodge
-Horizontal, short range but least one hit will land if you dodge
-Dodges low
-Fast for an avoid move, equal to rolling back fist
-Deals really high damage for all the benefits it provides (It deals more damage then eye poke. This silly twirl thing hurts more then
getting your eyes gouged apparently)
Cons:
-Looks really stupid, even for stagger standards
-Can be jumped
-Low advantage on hit, but I seriously doubt people even notice this
I think I got every aspect of this move pretty accurately, and things don't look very balanced so far.
Double Fist stretch:
Pros:
-It deals over 100 damage for me, and I'm not even speced into dexterity
-Really high advantage on hit
-Double hit, so no khalt or charge and awkward to dodge
-Horizontal move, so counters that stuff
-Fast. On the brink of mid speed, but not quite.
Cons:
-Can be ducked
-Low range
I could go on about handstand kick or backfall strike, but I think my point is clear. These moves just offer way too many things compared to other moves in their category. Sure they can be parried or avoided, but that goes for every other move as well. I guess I'm ok with these moves exsisting physically they way they are, just please tweak the numbers. Bring the damage WAY down to emphasize the point of stagger being an unconventional fighting style, because if your dancing does as much damage as punching and kicking, you are not unconventional. As far as I'm concerned you're pretty god dam professional, which is not the spirit of stagger.
Lets break this down:
Whirlwind Doublepunch:
Pros:
-Double hit, so no khalt or charge attacks, awkward to dodge
-Horizontal, short range but least one hit will land if you dodge
-Dodges low
-Fast for an avoid move, equal to rolling back fist
-Deals really high damage for all the benefits it provides (It deals more damage then eye poke. This silly twirl thing hurts more then
getting your eyes gouged apparently)
Cons:
-Looks really stupid, even for stagger standards
-Can be jumped
-Low advantage on hit, but I seriously doubt people even notice this
I think I got every aspect of this move pretty accurately, and things don't look very balanced so far.
Double Fist stretch:
Pros:
-It deals over 100 damage for me, and I'm not even speced into dexterity
-Really high advantage on hit
-Double hit, so no khalt or charge and awkward to dodge
-Horizontal move, so counters that stuff
-Fast. On the brink of mid speed, but not quite.
Cons:
-Can be ducked
-Low range
I could go on about handstand kick or backfall strike, but I think my point is clear. These moves just offer way too many things compared to other moves in their category. Sure they can be parried or avoided, but that goes for every other move as well. I guess I'm ok with these moves exsisting physically they way they are, just please tweak the numbers. Bring the damage WAY down to emphasize the point of stagger being an unconventional fighting style, because if your dancing does as much damage as punching and kicking, you are not unconventional. As far as I'm concerned you're pretty god dam professional, which is not the spirit of stagger.
Comments
It gets frustrating hearing people constantly cry for the nerf hammer in competitive games. Nerfs are never really a positive imo. As much as I once despised Forsaken and Khalt, I never wanted them nerfed. I only wanted my style (Windfall) to 1) Work as intended 100% of the time and 2) To be brought inline with other styles benefits.
Edit: Honestly, it sounds like a Khalt player that wants every advantage in the game without any disadvantages. As soon as I saw the title, I had a certainty that it was a Khalt fighter.
do a whirlwind double punch in real life on someone its gona do 0 damage xD except to yourself your gona have scraped and dirty knees lol
give him a break hes only sharing his opinion. which is a popular one.
And see it this way rip_ridah imagine you didnt like the feel of these moves and didnt use them but where faced with dealing with them all the time. if you use these moves to its not as bad for you as it is for us since you share some of thier advantages.
P.S Kahlt players do have a special reputation these days, but maybe hes just a casual guy and not part of the meta kahlt bandwagon dont jump on him so quickly xD
All in all i have to use all of my abilities and dodge 3times as often just to have a chance against my double hit spamming enemie. Couldnt double hit s at least be less tracking?
The WWDP is a move that doesn't make a lot of sense close range. It's far too fast in that a human being couldn't get momentum in close range to do any damage at all, and it would take time for someone to drop their stance to even initiate it, which should be interruptible at close range with a variety of low moves. As someone drops their center of gravity down, a liver knee should catch them in the teeth, or a low round kick should catch them in the side of the head, or a foot stomp should kick them in the face. The only way to do this is to up the speed of conventional moves that can counter it, or force WWDP to be what it should be: a longer ranged move that is pretty useless close in, because to get the momentum to actually use something like this, you would need the distance to generate momentum.
Otherwise, WWDP is basically an exploit. You can put it in alt 3 and get ready to spam it every time anyone is winning with any kind of high initiate, and then just spam WWDP as a get out of jail free card every time. That forces a waiting game for the opponent, or a game of footsie, where you have to throw away 75% of your deck because here comes WWDP to interrupt every move, except jlk. People that use this tactic are usually khalt, in my experience
I did not mean to come off aggressive towards the op. For that, I apologize. However, I did mean to come off aggressive towards the topic.
Most of these moves in real life wouldn't be reasonable in anything save an action martial arts movie. This is a fantasy video game though, so I expect a reality based upon fantasy. Using that argument about the double swirl punchy thing would invalidate almost everything in the game with the exception of Windfall without the slowdown and a few other very basic moves.
I understand that you guys sharing your opinions on certain aspects of the game is warranted. I PERSONALLY believe that most of the lows and fast moves are bs, but I know that they are a necessary evil. I have ZERO lows or sweeps in my loadout. (Scratch that. The double swirly punch is low.) I will never ask for them to be nerfed. I will just constantly try to keep buffing my own skills against ALL forms of play.
It is very important to buff the weak moves but althought important to nerf the over powered because its much easier and needs less fixes to reach the golden spot, the almost perfect balanced gameplay , from both sides.
I mean in the end that is what we all want to choose a fighting style we like without having much of a disadvantage against someone that only tries to pick the strongest moves.
Or what do you want?
Better reflexes is one thing, but why do you need to work 3x as hard to beat someone that can spam WWDP from jab range over and over, with little to no threat of being interrupted? Again, that means the opponent has to play a waiting, defensive game -- because there are not enough counters to this move -- and that's boring gameplay, IMO.
For the most of the people here its not like they would choose the way of the least resistance to win. If it was they would just use the meta moves.
Its as simple as in every other game. Fun needs fairness and fairness is build upon balance.
Rip radah your way of winning with training only works because the game is already pretty balanced.
I have put in the time and effort to figure out multiple ways to beat that move. Just because you have not put that time and effort into it doesn't make it op. Maybe you have tried and have not been successful. That is a vast majority of the community. So the next logical step would be to call for a nerf because one has exhausted his/her limited effort in solving the problem that they are having.
A lot of people don't want to have the problem to begin with. They don't feel it fair that some moves are harder to counter than others. I expect those problem moves/powers/tactics coming in and am prepared to face and conquer them accordingly. Most times I am successful; sometimes it is an ongoing struggle. But until something is broken, (meaning that there is no move, no tactic, no strategy that can stop it), it is not op nor unbalanced. Imo.
This isn't an argument about your skill vs. another's, it's about having balanced alternates for every move.
Edit: I really don't care about how realistic the moves are. If you want absolver to be realistic, delete stagger and windfall. The game already gives ways to make your deck "real looking". Those of you who have faced me in a 1v1 would notice that I like a slow good looking deck over a cheesy silly looking one. But I digress, realism shouldn't matter to a certain extent. WWDP looks funny, and thats its point.
The Problem: i tryed out alot of moves with my friend johnnino and we noticed that many moves are different from what their stats show. For example WWDP should give u an hit disadvantage of 2frames when u hit the block but it actually doesnt. It would be a step in the right direction if the stagger moves would actually fit to their stats... aaand probably weaken the hit stun a bit so they cant get spammed.