Attack Changes (upper stance swap [Part 2])
Part 1: https://absolvergame.com/forums/discussion/20498/attack-changes-upper-stance-swap-part-1
Elbow Stumble - This attack, much like Curled Up Uppercut has no special property. The only downside is that it only hits high, but this is offset by the notably higher damage, slightly higher range, and faster speed.
For this I'd say it needs to do the same damage as curled up upper and have the same range. The tradeoff relative to curled upper would be only hitting high for faster speed. Having higher damage alongside the range and speed benefits makes it better in too many ways.
Jar Bash - This attack is about as fast, deals more damage, and has longer range than Elbow Stumble. Compared to other jabs of similar speed, it is argueably the best. It does too much damage and is far too reaching for how fast it is.
What I'd recommend is making it have the same attack speed as Body Blow. The tradeoff would be much higher range and slightly higher damage, for no dodge property and exclusively hitting high.
Body Blow - This is in a good spot right now due to its weakness to sweeping attacks. It's designed to be a jab/stopping attack counter and it does a good job at that without being too powerful in other situations.
The only issue I have with it is that Curled Up Uppercut should do the same damage.
Roll Punch - This attack has the same speed and (in practice) the same effective range as Body Blow. The only difference is that it counters high sweeping/jab attacks instead of stopping/jab attacks.
As such, it should have the same damage since high sweeping attacks are about as common as stopping attacks. Leading to a similar counter rate. It hits mid (which visually makes no sense), but since a lot of high sweeping attacks involve a jump it serves it better mechanically as a counter to those attacks.
The only other change I can think of would be making the attack animation punch more upward so it makes sense as a mid attack.
Meia Lua - This attack is very well balanced in terms of damage to speed. It's dodge property isn't too strong or weak either as it can easily be countered (Sweeps, Parries, Absorbs, and Ducking can be done easily on reaction) whilst also being a good option against jumping attacks and jabs. That being said, a lot of quicker high attacks will hit anyways due to the slowly initiating dodge.
The only things I'd adjust would be making it have more sideways tracking, and making the dodge occur a few frames earlier (to match the visuals). There are times where it can be side dodged (even though it should follow), and when a jab isn't avoided (even though the character is clearly below the attack).
Leg Breaker - Leg Breaker, Front Kick, and Side Kick are all visually slow, but there's actually a hitbox that occurs around the knee earlier in the attack that makes them significantly faster than they should be to hit. At close range, these three attacks are about as quick to land as Curled Up Upper, despite dealing way more damage. Leg Breaker itself also has really long range and heatseeking shin tracking capabilities.
The long range and tracking is fine givin the speed of the startup, but the hitbox that lands earlier needs to be removed as it makes it as fast as attacks of lower damage, whilst having significantly higher range and tracking. This is a major issue with Leg Breaker, Side Kick, and Front kick as it makes them far outclass other high damage attacks due to much lower time to hit.
The second change I'd suggest is to make it deal damage somewhere between Meia Lua and its current number. Due to the extremely high range and tracking, this attack is a little too powerful with the amount of damage it deals relative to how likely it is to land.
Side Kick - As mentioned before Side kick has a hitbox that makes it way quicker to hit than it should at close range. Though unlike Leg Breaker, it has significantly less range and tracking. Due to the lack of tracking and lower range, the higher damage is justified. It can also be evaded 2 ways (away from and ducked under), where as leg breaker can only be Evaded one way (Jumping). The other factor that makes it extremely deadly in the right hands is the really quick feint timing that it has, making it really powerful for mix-ups.
One change I suggest is to adjust the hitbox to where it does not hit notably sooner around the knee at point blank. Alongside having a quick high shield pressure/damage attack, you can garuntee a side kick out of a parry for massive damage.
Another change would be to increase the amount of time until you can feint the attack slightly. As of right now you can feint out of it quick enough into another slow high damaging attack with little risk (Front Kick, Jumped Out Elbow, and Leg Breaker being good examples). It can feint much faster than quicker attacks can. Making it not only good when it lands, but also safe to feint into another attack with.
In short, there is little risk to reward of it as an initiator when considering the mix-up/parry follow-up potential.
Front Kick - As mentioned before Front kick has a hitbox that makes it way quicker to hit than it should at close range. Though unlike Leg Breaker, it has significantly less tracking. That being said, it still has similar range and more tracking than it should givin it's mid-hitting guard breaking abilities. It's also about as quick as Leg Breaker and Side Kick whilst having a longer lingering hitbox at the end of the kick.
I suggest removing the quicker landing hitbox in a similar fashion to Side Kick and Leg Breaker, decreasing the damage to be equal to Leg Breaker, removing the lingering hitbox at the end of the animation, and decreasing the tracking to be in line with Hammer Kick.
Since it has a guardbreak effect and hits mid, it should deal less damage. The tradeoff with Leg Breaker being mid hit and guard break for slightly less range and way less tracking. Decreasing the tracking would make Front Kick more likely to be side dodged, and thus make it more risky to execute. Removing the lingering hitbox also makes the slow speed of the attack more of a downside to justify the Guardbreak and longer range than Hammer Kick.
Hammer Kick - Already a well balanced attack. It's slow enough to be reactively side dodged, but can hit mid and deal decent damage. It's not very far reaching, so it's damage and guardbreak can co-exist without one factor making it too versatile. The lack of tracking and non-evasive properties justify the speed of the attack, as it can be easily countered if used predictably.
Much like the first part, if you agree or disagree with any of these change ideas, let me know why so we can figure out the best way to balance these attacks. Also consider that these changes I suggested work with one another and are designed to make all attacks as viable as one another when used properly/in the right situation. I don't intend to make some attacks weaker for the sake of being weaker, but make them weaker so they don't overshadow other attacks by being too good.
Thank you for your time. Next I'll be tackling the attacks that start at the top but maintain the same stance.
Elbow Stumble - This attack, much like Curled Up Uppercut has no special property. The only downside is that it only hits high, but this is offset by the notably higher damage, slightly higher range, and faster speed.
For this I'd say it needs to do the same damage as curled up upper and have the same range. The tradeoff relative to curled upper would be only hitting high for faster speed. Having higher damage alongside the range and speed benefits makes it better in too many ways.
Jar Bash - This attack is about as fast, deals more damage, and has longer range than Elbow Stumble. Compared to other jabs of similar speed, it is argueably the best. It does too much damage and is far too reaching for how fast it is.
What I'd recommend is making it have the same attack speed as Body Blow. The tradeoff would be much higher range and slightly higher damage, for no dodge property and exclusively hitting high.
Body Blow - This is in a good spot right now due to its weakness to sweeping attacks. It's designed to be a jab/stopping attack counter and it does a good job at that without being too powerful in other situations.
The only issue I have with it is that Curled Up Uppercut should do the same damage.
Roll Punch - This attack has the same speed and (in practice) the same effective range as Body Blow. The only difference is that it counters high sweeping/jab attacks instead of stopping/jab attacks.
As such, it should have the same damage since high sweeping attacks are about as common as stopping attacks. Leading to a similar counter rate. It hits mid (which visually makes no sense), but since a lot of high sweeping attacks involve a jump it serves it better mechanically as a counter to those attacks.
The only other change I can think of would be making the attack animation punch more upward so it makes sense as a mid attack.
Meia Lua - This attack is very well balanced in terms of damage to speed. It's dodge property isn't too strong or weak either as it can easily be countered (Sweeps, Parries, Absorbs, and Ducking can be done easily on reaction) whilst also being a good option against jumping attacks and jabs. That being said, a lot of quicker high attacks will hit anyways due to the slowly initiating dodge.
The only things I'd adjust would be making it have more sideways tracking, and making the dodge occur a few frames earlier (to match the visuals). There are times where it can be side dodged (even though it should follow), and when a jab isn't avoided (even though the character is clearly below the attack).
Leg Breaker - Leg Breaker, Front Kick, and Side Kick are all visually slow, but there's actually a hitbox that occurs around the knee earlier in the attack that makes them significantly faster than they should be to hit. At close range, these three attacks are about as quick to land as Curled Up Upper, despite dealing way more damage. Leg Breaker itself also has really long range and heatseeking shin tracking capabilities.
The long range and tracking is fine givin the speed of the startup, but the hitbox that lands earlier needs to be removed as it makes it as fast as attacks of lower damage, whilst having significantly higher range and tracking. This is a major issue with Leg Breaker, Side Kick, and Front kick as it makes them far outclass other high damage attacks due to much lower time to hit.
The second change I'd suggest is to make it deal damage somewhere between Meia Lua and its current number. Due to the extremely high range and tracking, this attack is a little too powerful with the amount of damage it deals relative to how likely it is to land.
Side Kick - As mentioned before Side kick has a hitbox that makes it way quicker to hit than it should at close range. Though unlike Leg Breaker, it has significantly less range and tracking. Due to the lack of tracking and lower range, the higher damage is justified. It can also be evaded 2 ways (away from and ducked under), where as leg breaker can only be Evaded one way (Jumping). The other factor that makes it extremely deadly in the right hands is the really quick feint timing that it has, making it really powerful for mix-ups.
One change I suggest is to adjust the hitbox to where it does not hit notably sooner around the knee at point blank. Alongside having a quick high shield pressure/damage attack, you can garuntee a side kick out of a parry for massive damage.
Another change would be to increase the amount of time until you can feint the attack slightly. As of right now you can feint out of it quick enough into another slow high damaging attack with little risk (Front Kick, Jumped Out Elbow, and Leg Breaker being good examples). It can feint much faster than quicker attacks can. Making it not only good when it lands, but also safe to feint into another attack with.
In short, there is little risk to reward of it as an initiator when considering the mix-up/parry follow-up potential.
Front Kick - As mentioned before Front kick has a hitbox that makes it way quicker to hit than it should at close range. Though unlike Leg Breaker, it has significantly less tracking. That being said, it still has similar range and more tracking than it should givin it's mid-hitting guard breaking abilities. It's also about as quick as Leg Breaker and Side Kick whilst having a longer lingering hitbox at the end of the kick.
I suggest removing the quicker landing hitbox in a similar fashion to Side Kick and Leg Breaker, decreasing the damage to be equal to Leg Breaker, removing the lingering hitbox at the end of the animation, and decreasing the tracking to be in line with Hammer Kick.
Since it has a guardbreak effect and hits mid, it should deal less damage. The tradeoff with Leg Breaker being mid hit and guard break for slightly less range and way less tracking. Decreasing the tracking would make Front Kick more likely to be side dodged, and thus make it more risky to execute. Removing the lingering hitbox also makes the slow speed of the attack more of a downside to justify the Guardbreak and longer range than Hammer Kick.
Hammer Kick - Already a well balanced attack. It's slow enough to be reactively side dodged, but can hit mid and deal decent damage. It's not very far reaching, so it's damage and guardbreak can co-exist without one factor making it too versatile. The lack of tracking and non-evasive properties justify the speed of the attack, as it can be easily countered if used predictably.
Much like the first part, if you agree or disagree with any of these change ideas, let me know why so we can figure out the best way to balance these attacks. Also consider that these changes I suggested work with one another and are designed to make all attacks as viable as one another when used properly/in the right situation. I don't intend to make some attacks weaker for the sake of being weaker, but make them weaker so they don't overshadow other attacks by being too good.
Thank you for your time. Next I'll be tackling the attacks that start at the top but maintain the same stance.