Balancing moves like JLK, Foot Slap, P&S, and BTK
Jumped Light Kick, Foot Slap, Parry & Strike, and Back Tripped Kick are currently balanced in a way that actively hinders the flow of the game. Each them has limited application as counter hitters. Even after hitting a charging attack, these attacks are so fast you can easily defensive or jab after hitting. They do one thing so well and are absolutely terrible as anything other than that. This is because despite having good coverage, speed, and a fast executing defensive property tied to them, they all have negligable hitstun, damage, and stamina damage. Due to these factors, a player can safely sit on block and interrupt almost anything with exception to JLK, BTK, Foot Slap, and P&S themselves after blocking any of these.
The fact they have so little hitstun makes them pretty much useless in any string compared to other options, because any decent player can just block and get no frame disadvantage (in some cases even getting frame advantage from blocking). Which does balance them, but fails to address the issues caused by their only effective use. The major one being slowing down the game to a neutral poking competition, when one player is sitting on block with any of these moves. Actively forcing the other player into so few options they simply have to do the same thing over and over to counter. Lest they be poked for ~40 damage and put back in neutral.
Instead of changing factors like advantage, damage, or stamina damage to the point they have barely any use outside of escapes or counter hits from neutral. They should be slowed down a bit, and maybe even some should have a change in coverage.
JLK for example is an 11 speed mid hit that jumps. Meaning the only true counter attack is a strafe (since parrying attacks are side dependant, and charging attacks can be defensived after JLK hits.). Make the attack about 13 speed, make it hit low instead of mid, then give it 4/0 advantage, and 60-70 damage. This keeps other options in the same stance better offensively without JLK being absolute trash in this situation, and keeps it useful as a low attack counter hitter without trumping 90% of the attacks in the game. In regard to the animation, it already visually hits below many jumping attacks. So making it hit low wouldn't cause any visual/mechanical disparity, and even if needed for edge cases wouldn't take much adjustment.
Foot Slap is a high, horizontal, 13 speed jump with very poor adv on block, but workable adv on hit. It's not as bad as JLK since a lot of attacks that avoid high also hit low (Causing a flashy double whoosh instead of a counter hit), but it's still a little too quick when compared to an attack similar in function like Scissor Kick... Basically it should just be exactly like Scissor Kick stat wise. Scissor Kick is already a good attack without being too widely applicable. So Foot Slap should remain useful if it had similar stats to it.
P&S is just too fast for having a defensive function. The fact the parry effect makes the opponent stand up during the stun makes the attack function like a mid if timed right (again like current JLK). The latter wouldn't be too bad if the attack was slow enough to the point where you couldn't use it as a jab interupt as well. P&S really just needs to be nerfed to 15 or 16 startup, given similar advantage to the current fast punch, and slightly lower damage as the current Fast Punch. Meanwhile Fast Punch should be buffed to 11 or 12 speed with 4/0 advantage so we still have a quick interrupt with decent advantage in backstance (one of the functions 11 speed P&S did, without it being too oppressing with the parry stacked on top).
BTK is almost ok where it is. The fact it's negative on hit is a huge problem though. It should have 4/-2 advantage and be 13 speed. The reasoning being that as an interrupt it would allow for similar follow-ups to another 13 speed move that's fairly well balanced (Underknee Kick), whilst being balanced out by giving up slight pressure for a quick acting evasive property. Making it 13 speed would also make it reactable (with moderate latency) without making it too slow to be useful as a non-counter hit opener or Absorb follow-up. While the increased hitstun will make it useful mid string for mix-ups. As it will not make you a sitting duck when it hits.
The fact they have so little hitstun makes them pretty much useless in any string compared to other options, because any decent player can just block and get no frame disadvantage (in some cases even getting frame advantage from blocking). Which does balance them, but fails to address the issues caused by their only effective use. The major one being slowing down the game to a neutral poking competition, when one player is sitting on block with any of these moves. Actively forcing the other player into so few options they simply have to do the same thing over and over to counter. Lest they be poked for ~40 damage and put back in neutral.
Instead of changing factors like advantage, damage, or stamina damage to the point they have barely any use outside of escapes or counter hits from neutral. They should be slowed down a bit, and maybe even some should have a change in coverage.
JLK for example is an 11 speed mid hit that jumps. Meaning the only true counter attack is a strafe (since parrying attacks are side dependant, and charging attacks can be defensived after JLK hits.). Make the attack about 13 speed, make it hit low instead of mid, then give it 4/0 advantage, and 60-70 damage. This keeps other options in the same stance better offensively without JLK being absolute trash in this situation, and keeps it useful as a low attack counter hitter without trumping 90% of the attacks in the game. In regard to the animation, it already visually hits below many jumping attacks. So making it hit low wouldn't cause any visual/mechanical disparity, and even if needed for edge cases wouldn't take much adjustment.
Foot Slap is a high, horizontal, 13 speed jump with very poor adv on block, but workable adv on hit. It's not as bad as JLK since a lot of attacks that avoid high also hit low (Causing a flashy double whoosh instead of a counter hit), but it's still a little too quick when compared to an attack similar in function like Scissor Kick... Basically it should just be exactly like Scissor Kick stat wise. Scissor Kick is already a good attack without being too widely applicable. So Foot Slap should remain useful if it had similar stats to it.
P&S is just too fast for having a defensive function. The fact the parry effect makes the opponent stand up during the stun makes the attack function like a mid if timed right (again like current JLK). The latter wouldn't be too bad if the attack was slow enough to the point where you couldn't use it as a jab interupt as well. P&S really just needs to be nerfed to 15 or 16 startup, given similar advantage to the current fast punch, and slightly lower damage as the current Fast Punch. Meanwhile Fast Punch should be buffed to 11 or 12 speed with 4/0 advantage so we still have a quick interrupt with decent advantage in backstance (one of the functions 11 speed P&S did, without it being too oppressing with the parry stacked on top).
BTK is almost ok where it is. The fact it's negative on hit is a huge problem though. It should have 4/-2 advantage and be 13 speed. The reasoning being that as an interrupt it would allow for similar follow-ups to another 13 speed move that's fairly well balanced (Underknee Kick), whilst being balanced out by giving up slight pressure for a quick acting evasive property. Making it 13 speed would also make it reactable (with moderate latency) without making it too slow to be useful as a non-counter hit opener or Absorb follow-up. While the increased hitstun will make it useful mid string for mix-ups. As it will not make you a sitting duck when it hits.
Comments
Thank you for such detailed feedback and well-thought suggestions for the mentioned attacks. I'm passing along all information to the dev team, though I can't promise that those attacks will be changed in the way you have suggested. We really appreciate your ideas about improving the balance of some attacks in the way to get smoother in-game experience.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and being an active member of the community!
For example: gold link gives you an advantage of 3 so if you slow down JLK to 13 it wont be able to interrupt a "curled up uppercut" or even a "liverknee" after 0 hitstun and both hit very hard.
without proper counters the fight would be reduced to the defensive abilty and combining attacks.
so in order to let these moves fulfill their purpose i would suggest not to change them this drastically AND what even more important, to make other moves more viable.
For example: Illusion Twist Kick - the start up should remain that slow but the jump to dodge low hit should be as fast as JLK to make it a viable counterhit against lows.
Please buff high thrusts and low thrusts in general: even so they hit good they still so unreliable that the risk isnt worth it 90% of the time . a damage or stamina damage increase for several high- and low-thrust should be increase by about 10% and sometimes to start up should be shortened by 1. srsly 80% of the thrusts that are used by players now hit mid.
for the rest i would consider simular changes:
JLK: 12 start up, little more damage and hitstun
foot slap ishould remain like it is imo
p&s definitly slow down the hit to 14 or 15 but the parry should remain with the same speed,make it less tracking, in return p&s should deal a bit more damage (and/or stamina) and have higher hitstun
13 start up for BTK sounds right. basically make it the counterpart to foot slap, with less range but more viability due to more moves that hit top
y that what i think about it
The reason the current state of these attacks is bad is because a player using these moves for their intended purpose makes fights drag along in a way where the player fighting it is actively forced into a small set of responses that will work. The best use for these attacks is to counter hit from blocking, or to mixup opponents in frame traps. Both situations where their use is very safe. However, in both these situations, the low hitstun will set the fight back into neutral (a state where neither player has frame advantage) over and over. Meaning that they actively hinder the playr using them offensively, or return the fight to a state where the player who got counter hit is in so little hitstun the situation hasn't evolved aside from them taking a miniscule amount of damage.
In the former situation (being used a quick and safe counterhits), they only serve to deal a small amount of damage when they counterhit. Due to the low hitstun, they end up just returning the fight back to neutral. In the latter situation (when used in frametraps) the player using these attacks is essentially giving up pressure since the only viable option the player they are facing has is to block, which directly counters these attacks. Once a player figures out their deck, these attacks become useless offensively due to their incredibly low hitstun and damage.
Both of these uses making the only viable use against any decent player turtling. Because they are also really fast for how many attacks they counter with their already present coverage and defensive properties. You have to bait them out and punish in such a small window. Any player who knows this can use it to their advantage and slow down the fight with the other player having to play along. Lest they be slowly whittled down. Gold link doesn't give you set advantage, the goldlink merely cuts the recovery. which makes the advantage numbers from attacks actually higher than they appear. Granted these attacks are still very negative on block even when goldlinked. Even if you can interupt after hitting, any decent player knows to just defensive, block, or use an evasive move afterwards. Without decent hitstun, they are only useful as counter hits. even though there are other attacks that can counter hit with a bit more risk, and still be effective offensively (like every evasive attack 15 speed or higher).
Even if JLK, BTK, and every other quick defensive attack was slower, the sheer speed of their evasion would make them still good as counterhits, and they wouldn't be so fast you could just sit on block and interrupt almost every attack with little risk like they are currently. In addition to having some use offensively, and being counterable with more than very careful poking and baiting (which is not engaging for every player).
I do agree some attacks like Illusion Twist Kick also need to be better in some way, but they still have their own uses that don't oppress playstyles to nearly the same extent. Once you tone down the really limiting attacks, you can see other evasives get more use and balance them much more effectively. Adjusting the extremes first in this case is the best course of action.
gold-linking is no hitstun but you can decrease the start up till the next hit by 3 frames wich has the same advantage in the end.
personally i just use combos that are fast enough to be impossible to interrupt with JLK and BTK but i dont think it should be exactly like that. JLK and BTK should have different start ups so noone has to build combos especially to counter those 2.
still. jlk has a hitstun of 0 and btk of -1. with gold link that makes an advantage of 3 and 2 , wich are good setups for a hook or a low kick. so when used as a counterhit they both can actually be used to open up a combo.
in return.
both are very punishable. not only because of their small hitstun. you dont have to block those you can counter them with your definsive ability wich give you even more advantage espacially in terms of shards and stamina.
yes the other evasive moves need more focus but to do that imo its enough to give
JLK 12 start up and
BTK13
and make the jump of illusion twist kick and so on (not the hit) faster to actually counter lows
The problem with really low hitstun is that you can be easily interurpted, and defensives or attacks with defensive properties can be very liberally used. Meaning that the situation after the counter hit remains the same as before, and slower evasive attacks that would normally get caught by Hook, Underknee Kick, Chin Palm, or Wobble Low will still be able to avoid and hit. Where after any other attacks they'd be interrupted before their evasive frames kicked in.
Moves fast enough to not be interupted are easily blockable, and can even be avoided by slower evasive moves due to the low hitstun. Giving the person just counterhit by these attacks enough options to where the next attack isn't any bit safer than before to use. Despite being fast and safe, these attacks don't give any real advantage to the player attacking. Making them very ineffective leading into anything else against any decent player.
If they were decent offensively while being good counter hitters, instead of being jabs and counter hitters at the same time, they wouldn't have to slow down the game in order to be used in an effective manner. We already have jabs ment for poking, quick attack set ups, and interruption. So having those qualities on attacks that can already interrupt mid and fast speed attacks effectively with their quick evasion alone just makes them limit the actions of both players too much.
If they are used to initiate, the best way to counter them is very safe and doesn't change much (blocking). Meaning they can't be used effectively to pressure in any capacity since they'll just be blocked. If they are used as counter hitters, their speed and coverage allows them to interrupt many mid speed moves. Thus lowering the range of attacks that effectively counter them significantly.
The low amount of counterattacks makes hard reads and blocking the only effective options to dealing with them. Leading to situations where both players know the others options, but can't do anything about them unless they bait each other into it. Bait which most skilled players don't take, unless they get so bored of moving around in neutral; actively forcing a slow fight. If the player using them doesn't turtle and bait they shoot themselves in the foot, and if a player fighting them doesn't turtle and bait they shoot themselves in the foot as well.
This is a problem that can only be fixed by slowing down their startup times by 2-4 frames, and upping their advantage numbers to match other mid speed attacks with defensive properties and similar coverage.
for example i would have alot more choices against those move:
1. feint than go for an evasive move
2. stepcancel into a charge move
3. use my stagger front charge or sidedodge for JLK
4. feint and block than reattack with a fast move
5. use a combo that simply fast enough
i still think 12 and 13 start up are enough
just a little side note: i dont use one of JLK or BTK i just fight alot people who use them
2. If you use a charging move then it's very easy for them to defensive afterwards or gold link into another fast attack to break the charge
3. specific to one style, a stye that only works i the person using JLK, BTK, or P&S isn't turtling (which is where the issues come into place)
4. this is the only valid option that doesn't rely on a specific style or attack string to consistently work, but at that point they could just block the moves fast enough to interrupt the follow-up, or defensive themselves and completely counter it with less effort and simpler execution.
5. Problem with that is that it depends on your deck having certain attacks. Technically everything is hard countered by some deck composition, but if you don't have that you have to resort to their neutral interrupt game. Plus faster strings, that can counter these attacks consistently with similar difficulty as executing them is for the opponent, don't have as much utility. So they can be easily countered if the person using these attacks knows how to use them effectively.
If you actually fought people who knew how to use them, or used them yourself, you'd see just how badly they pigeonhole the combat variety.
2. yeah that can happen but youd have to predict that before
3. not specific to one style, because every other style can use a fast feint or stop attacking to use the defensive ability against the incoming jlk or btk
5. i dont like a meta but you have to use some kind of moves in order to have a properly working deck.
most simple example: your deck only contains slow attacks--->youll always get interrupted
your deck only contain very fast attacks----> you wont ever be able to breaks the opponents guard
the majority of attacks are high---> ...
the majority hit low---> ...
the majority hits right or left---> fked by forsaken
and on and on and on.
Its a common thing that i encounter players that are playing very good but their deck is so fking easy to exploit even with all the feinting, range and timing games and good defensive ability use.
2. mid attack you can see if the opponent is using a charging attack, and by then you just have to time the defensive correctly. The few exceptions being attacks with a lot of hitpause sometimes making your only option afterwards blocking or getting hit (which none of these attacks have high enough hitpause for that to happen).
3. you specifically mentioned stagger style's defensive attacks.
5. The problem with these attacks is that the way to counter their proper use pigeonholes your deck into having to use a small enough set of moves, and if you don't have those certain attacks it requires a very specific strategy to consistently counter these attacks against somebody of equal skill. Basically forcing you into playing their game because otherwise the match is a stalemate.
but we are just arguing about 1 or 2 start up frames. i dont think thats necessary.
im not using any of those moves except for P&S anyways.
But here is another thing that i just noticed even so i used P&S since the beginning.
P&S actually has the shard filling scaling of an actual parry. 1 or 2 frames(goes for jabs) more start up for stamina regeneration, shard load and possible low block. Slowing P&S should the real aim imo
i want to have a balanced P&S again wich is fun to use and not that strong that everyone complains about it
Though it doesn't matter whether you use the attacks or not. What matters is how using these attacks effectively can force a fight into having the pace decided by one player.