Forsaken Rework
To start off, I'm not advocating a direct nerf to Forsaken. In fact, I believe Forsaken's current design directly slows this game down and trivializes some of the mechanics and player choices on the highest level of play. As of right now Forsaken has definitive, uncounterable, and boring post parry options.
What do I mean by this?
Definitive in the sense that if you have an attack fast enough to hit after parrying, it is always optimal to pick that one. If both attacks available are fast enough, it's ALWAYS more optimal to choose the one with higher damage. Anything too slow to hit in the stun window will just be Blocked, Side-Stepped, Parried, Evaded, Absorbed, I-framed, or Interrupted depending on the attack (some attacks can only be blocked after stun like Pushed Back Kick).
It's Uncounterable due to the fact that you have no way of countering it post Parry unlike Kahlt's Absorb. Windfall's pre-defensive game is complex enough to justify confirms as the slowing period is based off of the recovery of the attacks avoided (slower attacks avoided allowing for slower attacks to confirm), and a huge array of attacks have 1 out of 4 safe evasion directions. Stagger is too different from every other style to compare, so I won't delve into that.
Above all else it's BORING to use and fight against (coming from a Forsaken main btw). Every time the stun lands the same exact thing will happen (biggest damage possible from 2 options if either can hit). There is no reason to use a slow attack, no reason to feint the attack, no reason to use a faster attack if it deals less damage, and the player on the other end can't do ANYTHING to prevent it.
How do we fix this?
Allow players in Parry stun to utilize their defensive, cancel recovery frames upon successful parry, allow Forsaken to cancel out of parry on successful parry, and allow Kahlt to activate a Breaking attack proof Absorb whilst in the stun window.
The first change will give a reason to mix up your post parry attack, similar to how Kahlt has to. The major difference being you won't have to account for interrupts within the stun window. Prevention of interrupts being a reward for having to take into account direction alongside timing (a more difficult pre-defensive choice making the post-defensive choices easier). There'd be a reason to use different attacks as your opponent could try to defend different directions/quicker/slower and get mixed up via attack timing or direction.
The second and third change would make counter attacking less dependent on buffering and overall tighten the controls. Whilst still allowing a failed parry to be punished the same way it can be currently.
The Fourth change prevents Kahlt from being locked into getting hit by breaking attacks right out of stun (PBK being only blockable after stun for example), or having to expend a huge chunk of stamina to dodge every time they are parried. Without this, parrying would put them at a disadvantage relative to other styles post-parry with no counterplay. Unlike other styles that can counter Breakers without expending stamina by utilizing their defensives.
What do I mean by this?
Definitive in the sense that if you have an attack fast enough to hit after parrying, it is always optimal to pick that one. If both attacks available are fast enough, it's ALWAYS more optimal to choose the one with higher damage. Anything too slow to hit in the stun window will just be Blocked, Side-Stepped, Parried, Evaded, Absorbed, I-framed, or Interrupted depending on the attack (some attacks can only be blocked after stun like Pushed Back Kick).
It's Uncounterable due to the fact that you have no way of countering it post Parry unlike Kahlt's Absorb. Windfall's pre-defensive game is complex enough to justify confirms as the slowing period is based off of the recovery of the attacks avoided (slower attacks avoided allowing for slower attacks to confirm), and a huge array of attacks have 1 out of 4 safe evasion directions. Stagger is too different from every other style to compare, so I won't delve into that.
Above all else it's BORING to use and fight against (coming from a Forsaken main btw). Every time the stun lands the same exact thing will happen (biggest damage possible from 2 options if either can hit). There is no reason to use a slow attack, no reason to feint the attack, no reason to use a faster attack if it deals less damage, and the player on the other end can't do ANYTHING to prevent it.
How do we fix this?
Allow players in Parry stun to utilize their defensive, cancel recovery frames upon successful parry, allow Forsaken to cancel out of parry on successful parry, and allow Kahlt to activate a Breaking attack proof Absorb whilst in the stun window.
The first change will give a reason to mix up your post parry attack, similar to how Kahlt has to. The major difference being you won't have to account for interrupts within the stun window. Prevention of interrupts being a reward for having to take into account direction alongside timing (a more difficult pre-defensive choice making the post-defensive choices easier). There'd be a reason to use different attacks as your opponent could try to defend different directions/quicker/slower and get mixed up via attack timing or direction.
The second and third change would make counter attacking less dependent on buffering and overall tighten the controls. Whilst still allowing a failed parry to be punished the same way it can be currently.
The Fourth change prevents Kahlt from being locked into getting hit by breaking attacks right out of stun (PBK being only blockable after stun for example), or having to expend a huge chunk of stamina to dodge every time they are parried. Without this, parrying would put them at a disadvantage relative to other styles post-parry with no counterplay. Unlike other styles that can counter Breakers without expending stamina by utilizing their defensives.
Comments
Thanks a lot for your detailed feedback and offered ways of improvement of Fighting Styles. Reading your thoughts about it is interesting. I'm passing along it to the Team.
Allow players to use their defensive ability post parry? So you want kalt to just say oh I've been parried kewl bruh, il just flick the analog in any random direction everytime and il be safe?
so here you saying to hell with new players and casual players, lets change everything in consequence of the 10% of people who are actually lame enough to use side kick after a parry etc... im a forsaken and i assure you i don't post parry with the BEST option available, because im here to have fun before being the best. Anyway this would just complicate things for casual players.
"mix up your post parry attack, similar to how Kahlt has to" ? lol dude klath life is easy... Equip fast jab -> wait for any move fairly slower then fast jab -> absorb -> use fast jab as opponent is still in his endlag.. Hit connects EVERY TIME. Not to mention Jack your will up and earthquake people 20 times a game and again post stun free hit, since klath dose not slow the flow of combat you can pull off 3 absorbs in 1 second, idk about you but that racks up will pretty fast compared to windfall and forsaken. That's a klath strength that not many seem to notice.
for windfall i agree with the first part but not the second. the thing with windfall is the timing to land more then one direction on the same incoming move can be tricky to master. None the less go fight risrin in her windfall mode since shes an NPC with mathematical accuracy (when she wants to). she WILL do a left horizontal doge vs your incoming horizontal right attack (mirror effect) and doge it. Most people don't know this timing, i guess since they stick with the 1 direction they're comfortable with.
Also windfall are fast they shouldn't have post doge heavy hit options, i don't want wind to hit me like a rock, and in kalths case i don't want a rock to hit me as fast as wind.... this is a personal opinion though i just associate
windfall with a mosquito, annoying and hard to slap.
klath with a rock, steadfast and heavy.
stagger with a razor edged leaf, something where to much force just makes the leaf float around the pressure of the blow while nicking you with its edge.
forsaken with a river, following his opponents flow with occasional pressure.
And i happen to respect more the people who play their class within those lines As it makes feel like the styles are truly different.
point being i feel you on the fact that forsakens banking of every math advantage and definitive options is super lame.
i feel that the player's somewhat to blame for that as the hollow validation they gain from winning seems more important then fun. Though in the end what you present is to castrating for new and casual players in my opinion.
Need to find a way to please both the pro and casual scene.
The change can also cause a mindgame after the parry happens similar to Kahlt where both players have the opportunity to gain or lose more/less based on how well they play after the parry happens. Which will diversify the gameplay, and increase the depth of combat at a higher level.
If you know what you're doing, you'd know not to keep attacking when a Kahlt absorbs as it leaves you open for getting hit by a shard ability or a counter attack. In some cases you can gold link and be fine, and knowing where and when to do this can completely shut down follow-ups to Absorb. Meanwhile, a successful parry can not be countered after it is executed, and the guarunteed damage makes it too powerful in comparison. It's not a matter of how difficult something is to use or beat, but what a good player can do with both. Forsaken right now is able to CONFIRM damage 100% unlike Kahlt. Balance shouldn't be determined by the rate in which the average player fails to execute, but what the best players can accomplish with the tools given to them. If there is no balance at the top, then one ability is used above the rest.
Windfall isn't fast, their execution frames occur around the same time as Parry. The only difference being a smaller window where the slow effect occurs, and a separate window where you avoid the attack, but don't gain advantage by not procing the slowing effect.
If you're referring to the aesthetic of Windfall, then following up with a slower attack is irrelevant since the avoid itself was still visually swift and graceful. Especially when the opponent is slowed for a longer period of time making the Windfall practitioner's speed still higher relative to the person they just avoided. Despite using a slow attack to punish, it appears even more graceful and flowing as they are able to just barely catch their opponent before they can recover with a heavy impact.
The difficulty to land Absorb/Parry/Evade should only determine the advantage the player gets on success. Kahlt gets the least advantage since you are still allowed to continue acting as normal (gold linking, blocking, feinting, etc.), and Windfall's slow time is based on the recovery of the attack avoided meaning you have to bait out certain attacks to get a larger advantage (by slowing the other player for longer to allow for more powerful confirms). Parry just flat out Guarantees the same damage regardless of which attack is baited out as long as you get the right direction out of 2 and get the right timing.
Given the fact Parry's usage difficulty lies between Kahlt (considering only timing) and Windfall (having more directions to consider and a smaller window to slow than Forsaken has to stun), it should be harder to follow up than Windfall, but easier to follow-up on than Kahlt. Not having to worry about interrupts or blocking makes its higher difficulty to pull of (and by consequence easier to trick nature), worth the extra pre parry effort and mindgame. Allowing defensives only during the stun frames allows for counterplay, but only if the person parried greatly outplays the Forsaken that parried them in that moment (since they have way less options to counter).
Overall parry would still be powerful and actually have potential for greater damage due to the post parry mindgame.
If they don't want to compete, they can just stick to messing around with equally minded/skilled players. The game in it's current state is balanced at the lower levels of skill, but it his horribly unbalanced at the top when it comes to style defensives. The change I suggested makes high skill gameplay more balanced, and evens out the rewards gained by successfully using the defensives at lower skill/casual levels of play.
It's even harder for new players to use Windfall due to the execution, and it's harder to capitalize on Kahlt at lower levels due to the post Absorb mindgames required. Forsaken is too easy at lower levels due to the Follow-up game being non-existent as it is always static. Even if the execution is more difficult than Kahlt, it's still easier overall due to the easy punishes the hard stun of parry brings. Changing Forsaken to be more in line with other defensives gives players at lower levels equally useful choices, whilst removing their reliance on crutches.
Actively ruining the high level experience is not the way to go to allow for newer/casual players to enjoy the game. Proper matchmaking, a larger playerbase, and more low skill level or alternate content will. The change I suggested obviously isn't the change to make the game more accessable. Rather, it's to keep the high level players from leaving the game out of frustration and boredom due to the imbalance. Which itself keeps the game alive and allows for newer players to join in eventually.
Had to split the post since I exceeded the character limit lol
It would never work, when kalth does a successful defensive ability the opponent remains in endlag of his move. Giving klath a free hit should one of the top 3ish fastest moves in the game be the followup. Which then gives them not only a near 100% confirm but an easy entry into gold link. Your proposing that Parried opponents be returned to neutral for a short time with a locked power pool and combat deck. Lets assume no one has 100% confims, This will only result in it being a stamina game in the pro scene , since no one has chances to near 100% confirm it would be possible for both sides to go on at it forever so to speak. Making the determining factor 'who has stamina left'. And people would build in consequence discouraging heavy builds and armor even further then they already are. I.E Destroying an evil to create another.
I'm confident I know what im doing, lol its more complicated then that, since you speak of the high lvl play a lot im surprised you oversimplified it in such a way.
Lets say I hit --> he then absorbs --> fast hits me in my end lag and I stop attacking which I obviously do lol then he follows with one gold linked mid to heavy hit out of 8 possible outcomes. I'm then either blocking and losing chunks of my stamina. Dodging away to attempt to reset the engagement, with the chance of him having a long ranged alternative that's gona catch me.(more common in sword decks). Final option is to try and parry. So point being which ever I choose im on the defensive and should I find the opportunity to be aggressive they will turtle waiting for 2 Very important things 1. Breakers to doge away from and 2. Their favorite absorb opportunities, to get you back under pressure. Parry and feints are the only real way back into the fight. (4th option would be to charge move though its not really viable because of Double hits,breakers,stopping hits,fast gold links,earthquake.) Anyway at high lvl play kalths got the most going for it specially with high will. Though currently forsaken is close behind, and windfall has great potential but is an unfortunate 3rd place.
But ya Klath is able to confirm very near 100% also with a super fast hit post absorb as no one can do anything in their endlag. Will agree though that their options is way more limited then forsaken post parry.
im kind of saying both but I explained myself poorly.
im saying windfall is meant to be fast as in scaling with faster moves is more prominent and that they need to always have more stamina then their opponent, favoring lighter combat decks and
Lighter gear, and powers like exhaust and silence to hinder stamina recovery even further, they where meant to be hard to touch and excel at stamina management ( stamina loss is defined by weight and how heavy a move is so its safe to imply that one who excels at stamina management is/uses the opposite of those things.) and in the end regardless of how they buff those strengths for them I still don't want them to be TO comfortable with heavy hits, you know float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. Not dodge like air benders in avatar, hit like a 250 pound dude with a brick.
I want them to make them stronger but somewhat steer them in that direction.
"Kahlt gets the least advantage since you are still allowed to continue acting as normal"
This is relative.. The fact that you are still allowed to is an advantage for them should they seek to play a "will" game. Getting your shards faster is considered an advantage for some..
They even make overly committed opponents waste stamina at a faster rate since they don't stop the flow. Though it does go both ways depending on playstyle it can also be a disadvantage IL give you that much.
As for windfall and parry part well I agree though have you ever considered the moves available to a post parry to be the problem and not the style? They can create a ton of other moves with this problem in mind and just delete side kick or slow it down for example? I think that's worth considering.
Also I know its 2 active directions facing any given opponent yes but its technically 4 directions as I've shown in my gifs in the other thread.
in this gif where im fighting 2 people I have to account for 4 directions.
how do you suggest they do that? There is no rank system or current ways ingame to separate casual from serious players. My gf is a casual players and has tried all classes for a decent amount of time. She happens to love windfall over all classes felt comfortable with it and is near lvl 200 combat trial now.
Actually someone posted in the forums recently a thread about how they switched to forsaken to windfall and find it way smoother or something. It depends on people man. Some will find it easier.
100% agreed but the opposite is just as valid that's the problem : /
I feel you lol 773 to long.
The shard gain that happens allows Kahlt to use abilities more often that give them an advantage in a fight, but every style gets that for executing their defensive properly. The styles with harder execution are already rewarded by lowering their opponents options post defensive. Which allows them to more likely get a punish right after. You can parry back to back, but there's no point when you can just 100% of the time punish. Windfall is similar to Forsaken in that it can give confirms, but you have to actively pick out which attacks to avoid in order to get certain punishes. Which is a complicated enough task to where the player being avoided can throw off that strategy. Windfall's pre-defensive gameplay is complex enough to justify confirms because there's plenty of room for both players to effect the outcome. An outcome which is different based on both players actions due to the amount of time spent slowed being based on recovery time of an attack. The attacks in the game are horrifically imbalanced. That being said, one style having a static hard stun, and every other style having room for counterplay or higher risk/reward is not good. If every style was just "difficulty of execution = length of stun" it'd be fine and balanced. Parry is more so an issue because it robs player agency in places where other defensives do not, while at the same time not allowing a better player to get more out of it due to being a static hard stun. Windfall essentially has a hard stun, but it's effected by things within player control like which attacks Player A uses and which attacks Player B decides to avoid. Parry is completely indifferent to the other player's actions as long as Player B can execute. An execution which easier to pull off and harder to fool than say... Windfall's evade. You don't need to account for 2 directions relative to both players, as long as you flick the stick in the general direction of the person you aren't locked onto, the direction of their attack doesn't matter. With windfall it's a nightmare since you have to know wether or not it's a Horizontal High, Horizontal Low, or a Thrust. So in reality Forsaken's parry against opponents other than the one you're locked onto is only as difficult to execute as Kahlt's absorb.
In regards to the rest of your post: In order to make casual gameplay better your game just needs appeal to enough people to continue attracting an audience (an audience that will inheritly have more casual players since most people play games primarily for fun). Part of making a game appeal to more people is to make every option available different (to attract different kinds of players and broaden the playerbase) and equally effective over all (so none of these player's playstyles are alienated or less desireable to use). I'm suggesting a change to improve the balance of the game. Changing Forsaken's defensive falls in line with that, and by extension it makes it less likely to cause the feeling of "I could've done more, but my character is gimped in comparison because they have a better defensive". A thought which can turn away less dedicated players of a game (i.e. most casual players). Even if they don't know that's the reason they want to stop playing.
As a side note: I believe every defensive should have no end lag on success to allow for countering multiple opponents regardless of how close their attacks land. As long as the player knows the types of coverage/direction/timing of the attacks their opponents are using. Hence why I reccommended Parry have no end lag or be cancel-able on success similar to Absorb (Which should also apply for feinted stagger dodges and Windfall's evade).
Dude i feel like you did'nt read the part where im saying that Kalth does have confirms...
Player A a klath equips the fastes sweep and the fastest punch for example. Player B attacks kalth with any move slower then Player A's sweep and punch ( which will be almost every other move lol ) Player A kalth reacts by absorbing and delivering one of those fast hits instantly as a followup while Player B is in his "endlag" ( the remaining animation lock denying you any imput until the attack that was absorbed finishes its movement and returns you to neutral or flows to your next attack)
though as i said their options are indeed more liminted then forsaken. Your missing my point again lets say we put 4 AIs that have a dificulty setting at 100% and they dodge,parry,absorb, drunky twirly EVERY move you throw at them in any circumstance. well since kahlt does not slow the flow of combat that means its possible to absorb like 3 times in 1 second, the other 3 classes will only have time to do 1 defensive ability in that time frame. Hence why not stopping the flow of combat can be considered an advantage by some.
Again true and false. the invisible line that determins if the secondary player is to my side or my back gets stepped over quite often, specialy with avoid moves. "just flicking in the direction" will in most cases leave you punished.
If in the middle of a fight lets say the player im NOT locked on to uses surging palm for example or better yet a stagger avoid and he was behind me slightly to my right prior to using it. For the begining of the move youl feel like back right and back left are your 2 valid option vs him since hes behind you, though with you possibly even being nudged back from a hit while blocking from the other player, his position relative to you changes to the two valid parry directions being back right and up right. So yea should you have flicked the analog randomly backwards and done back left you get punished.
As you see in my gif im consistent with them because i always use the 'middle' parry relative to thier position so to speak that way should their position relative to me change, il always parry the hit in the direction i know its gona come from as opposed to where the player is located. Basically accounting for 4 direction to avoid inconsistence.
anyway for the rest i know your not trying to snuff casual players i was just saying giving them to much things to keep track of can make the game seem complicated and for some complicated = no fun, though for others simple = no fun. balance in all aspects.
P.S Forgetting about lag, windfall vs more then one opponent has the highest payoff though as they are the best suited to make opposing team mates or enemies hit eachother. tradeoff for that payoff
I did read that part, it's just that your completely wrong. Kahlt can't get confirms as there is always at least one way to avoid the next attack. One way is blocking since the startup of the next attack will ALWAYS be slower than the recovery time of the attack Absorbed. If you get hit after a Kahlt Absorbs you, it's your fault for using the wrong option after being Absorbed. By the time the Kahlt can cancel out of the Absorb into an attack, their opponent is already in the endlag of their attack. This endlag will always be shorter than the next attack that comes out, with the exception of slower attacks. In the case of slower attacks, it's still possible to gold link an evasive attack to avoid the Kahlt from hitting you. If you still get hit, it's all latency, poor decision making, or a hole in your deck the Kahlt is exploiting.
Kahlt only Absorbs you 3 times in one second because you keep attacking them. Halt your attacks, use some other method of hitting them with different timing or a breaking property, back off and reset the A.I. to an offensive state rather than a defensive one, feint into a jab, or defensive the response after the initial Absorb. Even if you're fighting 4 overly defensive AI opponents that love to spam their defensives, you can still wait them out, parry then punish, or parry then use your shard abilities to crowd control the other enemies before punishing. The only instance in which not stopping the flow is more useful than stopping it, is if the person getting Absorbed keeps doing actions that favor the Kahlt. For example, continuing to hit them while they Absorb multiple times. A confirm will always be more useful than a frame advantage, and a defensive buff doesn't completely nullify the ability to take damage from the attack like a parry does. Kahlt's Absorb is objectively worse than a parry since the damage from the next attack is not guaranteed, and neither is the possibility of the attacking player feeding the Absorb with more attacks.
I've never had that issue before as I have even parried an attack from someone I was not locked onto by parrying in the opposite direction of them. What you're experiencing is latency causing enemies to hit through your parry, or simply timing it incorrectly. It may even be caused by the terrain effecting when the hitbox registers, thus hitting you around your parry frames when you should be getting the parry. The direction when parrying enemies you are not locked onto is irrelevant. Even if i missed something and it is determined by direction to an extent (which I will test later), it's at most a 50/50 because you only have to worry if the enemy not locked onto is to your right or left.
anyway with the changes in beta.. kalth post absorb will be slower, parry stun is shorter. im happy you happy. this part of the disscusion will soon be redundant.
(though i havent tried the beta for the new patch as i am on ps4 so im mostly assuming for that last part)
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For the kalth getting shards faster part you seem to be trying to explain me how to avoid this situation but i know what to do thanks though for trying to suggest tips. Anyway does it mean my execution will be flawless every single time. No. But by pointing out all of this your proving my point, its POSSIBLE for a good kalth to get his shards faster due to him not stopping the flow of combat. (otherwise you wouldn't be suggesting ways to avoid it happening
thats all i wanted to say concerning this part of the discussion. No one plays perfectly should a player ever over commit or the kalth player gets used to the feint pattern, boom you just gave him earthquake. A good kalth gets an advantage from his ability not stoping the flow in such situations, thats that buddy.
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"as I have even parried an attack from someone I was not locked onto by parrying in the opposite direction of them"
thats odd as hell but again your proving my point, so many factors to create inconsistence which i agree witch. For me though the greatest variable is people stepping back and forth over the lines of which parry will work.
There is something you missed. Litteraly imagine your facing someone, then imagine on the floor 4 lines that seperate if someone is in front of you (front left and right parry)... Someone to your left ( back left and front left parry).. Someone to your right ( back right and front right parry) or finally facing your back ( back left and right parry)
Now lets imagine 2 opponents, one to your right and the one your locked onto. Out of the 3 valid directions you will use They share a parry point (line) which is front right parry. So now the guy to your right is just about to step over the line and transition to valid parry directions being front right and front left (again out of the many variables being nudged wile blocking is enough to make that happen), should you have parried with back right you would of gotten punished. So keep track of all 4 parry lines and the opponents positions relative to you.
Put simple the dude beind you is he slightly to your left or right?.. Left ok then parry with back left incase he transitions to your left side making back right no longer valid by the time you flick it.
My way of seeing things just accounts for more consistence. Try it and do let me know.