Whirlwind Double Punch and Jumped Light Kick are too good

As of right now, there are a couple moves that are way better other counterparts in every situation.
The two biggest cases from my experience are: Whirlwind Double Punch and Jumped Light Kick. The main issue with the former is that it comes out just as fast as Fast Back Fist, but has a double hit property, Longer Range, The ability to hit low, alongside a ducking property. The latter is argueably faster than straight punch, has the ability to hit low, dodges low attacks, and is only slightly worse in terms of damage.

Whirlwind Double Punch should have a longer startup with decreased movement, and Jumped Light Kick should hit high as opposed to low with a slightly lower range. This way, both these moves have ups and downs relative to other moves with the same stance changing properties.

Comments

  • I use both of these moves, they are hardly the "meat" of my deck. Most of my hits are landed with different attacks. I like the latter because it's a very safe movement, low risk low reward IMO. The former is easy for me to dodge, and has a longer cool down so when my opponent uses it, it pretty much guarantees a free hit with something stronger.
  • edited September 2017

    I use both of these moves, they are hardly the "meat" of my deck. Most of my hits are landed with different attacks. I like the latter because it's a very safe movement, low risk low reward IMO. The former is easy for me to dodge, and has a longer cool down so when my opponent uses it, it pretty much guarantees a free hit with something stronger.


    True. They aren't the "meat" of every deck, but I can easily substitute these 2 attacks into any one of my decks and make them objectively better. The Jumped Light Kick > Mewashi > Whirlwind Double Punch is a really hard counter to a lot of openers and hyper armor, while looping into itself. This bread and butter combo is significantly better than the other variant using Straight Punch and Low Heel Kick. It has the same stance changes, faster speed, more range, a safer opening, and the ability to counter hyper armor. It's hardly my main combo (with exception against leg sweep and charge attack spam), but these 2 moves are way too good when used properly, even outside this combo.

    Just a couple changes to balance them out with other choices while retaining their more unique/aesthetic qualities is what I offered.

    If Jumped light kick couldn't hit low and had lower range, there'd be a reason to use straight punch over it in some situations. If Whirlwind Double Punch was slower to start up and didn't move forward as much, there'd be a reason to use Low Heel Kick over it in some situations.

    As of right now, they're too strong. Of course they'll be less strong once quicker attacks get less shield stun next update, but that doesn't change the fact they are way better than other attacks in almost every way.
  • WWDP undoubtedly needs a nerf, everyone uses it because it beats 80% of the moves in the game that most players open with.
  • WWDP undoubtedly needs a nerf, everyone uses it because it beats 80% of the moves in the game that most players open with.

    Just this morning I tested the 2 deck variants I made against the same players (one using WWDP and JLK, with the other using SP and LHK). The "meta" version (with WWDP and JLK) absolutely rekt them no question, or was much more diffcult for them to counter. The "non-meta" version (with SP and LHK) was countered much more easily by sweeping attacks and hyper armor (and funny enough WWDP and JLK).
  • Upping the stamina usage and lowering the forward movement range even just a little bit would help. i havent had much issue dealing with either one of these moves nor do i use them but i can see why people think the need a little bit of touch up. Things may change once 1.06 updates with the blocking mana burn is changed.
  • I'm glad someone else brought this up! The whirlwind double punch can't be dodged, and it's hard to interrupt because it's a double hit and comes too fast from too long of a range, so the only way I've found to neutralize it is just to block -- which shouldn't be the only way to intercept an attack. When people are spamming this attack it looks less like a fight and more like an out of control robot flailing around. Has anyone found a way to interrupt this, as is? Is there a low kick or counter for it?
  • insight said:

    I'm glad someone else brought this up! The whirlwind double punch can't be dodged, and it's hard to interrupt because it's a double hit and comes too fast from too long of a range, so the only way I've found to neutralize it is just to block -- which shouldn't be the only way to intercept an attack. When people are spamming this attack it looks less like a fight and more like an out of control robot flailing around. Has anyone found a way to interrupt this, as is? Is there a low kick or counter for it?

    Funny enough, the most direct hard counter is the other move I mentioned. Cancer beats cancer I guess XP
  • That sucks. Crazy that this game's best moves are drunken style, which in reality are ineffective movie-fu that would get someone killed in a real fight. (Sorry, Jackie Chan. It does look cool, right?) The jumping light kick is suspiciously close to the Karate Kid swan kick, too :) They should make that unblockable, because according to Miyagi, "Swan kick, no defense."

    Seriously, I love the fights that look real, and I every time I meet someone with a realistic deck I'm very happy to match and rematch them. The drunken stuff, not so much.
  • insight said:

    That sucks. Crazy that this game's best moves are drunken style, which in reality are ineffective movie-fu that would get someone killed in a real fight. (Sorry, Jackie Chan. It does look cool, right?) The jumping light kick is suspiciously close to the Karate Kid swan kick, too :) They should make that unblockable, because according to Miyagi, "Swan kick, no defense."

    Seriously, I love the fights that look real, and I every time I meet someone with a realistic deck I'm very happy to match and rematch them. The drunken stuff, not so much.

    I can agree with the aesthetics. I play forsaken but use a few stagger moves. They always look out of place because of those extra subtle movements the characters have. It's alright though, it has its perks.
  • Makes sense. I just start laughing when I see someone bending over backwards at a 90 degree angle and hitting me with the backs of their hands, or spinning around on their kneecaps, because doing either of those in the real world would have zero power and send the practitioner to the ER. And, when the stagger techniques are strung together and spammed, it looks and feels ridiculous to fight against, which is a complete immersion breaker (for me). I can suspend disbelief when it comes to the magic of the fold, and the immortality of the prospects, the game world, and everything contextually in the story -- because that's the mythology -- but when the foundation of the game (the fighting system) becomes impossible to believe, then that's more difficult to suspend disbelief. IMO, the stagger stuff makes matches more video-gamey, and less like a real sparring match, which is why I play.

    This is all just personal preference, I just wish the game doesn't turn into a competitive min-maxing meta where the beauty of an open-ended combo system gets narrowed because some things are better statistically, rather than the practicality of the movements, and the actual speed / power they would generate. And, the meta is becoming spinning around on your kneecaps, handruken, drunken smash, (there's a spinal injury), kneecap spin, ad nauseum.
  • insight said:

    This is all just personal preference, I just wish the game doesn't turn into a competitive min-maxing meta where the beauty of an open-ended combo system gets narrowed because some things are better statistically, rather than the practicality of the movements, and the actual speed / power they would generate. And, the meta is becoming spinning around on your kneecaps, handruken, drunken smash, (there's a spinal injury), kneecap spin, ad nauseum.



  • I registered for this forum just to say YES. Yes to everything insight said. Love the game, hate the stagger. It's just...silly
  • :D I just think the techniques are easily spammable, usually faster than it's non-stagger counterparts, hits like a truck, and comes from unpredictable directions, with a ton of range. That's a lot of benefits to stagger moves, so I can't blame people for using them, I just wish they were more balanced. That's why, in 75% of the fights I feel more like a bouncer than an absolver, because everyone I fight is drunk!
  • It just seems that every deck I fight has the same 3 or 4 moves. Its boring.
  • If you cant stand some things in the game then don't play the fucking game
  • Learn how to play the game and stop being a little bitch
  • dhensl216 said:

    If you cant stand some things in the game then don't play the fucking game

    dhensl216 said:

    Learn how to play the game and stop being a little bitch

    It's not that I can't stand the things, the issue lies with how these attacks lower the deck variety and viability of other attacks. It's sad when some attacks in the game are objectively less valuable than others. As the only use they have is if you want to purposefully gimp your deck.

    I do know how to play the game, in fact, it's fairly easy to counter these moves if you have the right deck to do so. Though, there lies the problem. Wether or not you win or lose is based mostly on your deck if you come up against someone of similar skill. Having certain attacks be significantly more useful than others in the same situation only makes variety even less present. As both the assailant and the defendant will be outmatched in terms of attack potency/utility if they do not conform to the "meta" attacks when constructing their decks.

    Also, your input is completely useless. If you don't have anything constructive to say or a coherent argument to make, please leave.
  • dhensl216 said:

    Learn how to play the game and stop being a little bitch

    Are you one of the guys that fills his deck with the cheapest meta-exploiting moves he can find and thinks he's really good?
  • 1) Whirlwind Double Punch is too good, need nerf.

    2) I don't get why many stagger moves are better than other moves. They are supposed to be unconventional contrary moves for experts to trick other experts not cheap moves for novices. That is, they are supposed to be slightly weaker than other moves and not mainstream as they are.
  • Both moves can be dodged and parried not sure they need a nerf at all. WWDP can be avoided by WF by pressing up to jump dodge and parried very easily!
  • WWDP easily outclass comparable moves like Tripped Kick or Low Spin Heel (2 moves that are also OP, overused and unrealistic in my opinion), why does it take twice as long to duck and hook than it does to drop to the dirt and drag your ass, knees or feet in a complete circle!? But I digress, other Stagger style moves have clear range/power advantages over other moves; Drunken Smash meets the OP/Stupid-looking requirement, as does Donkey Slap (that name though? lol). Here is how I think Stagger moves SHOULD work: you trade power and/or speed for unpredictability. But the reality is, you get benefits to all 3; hence the reason this thread exists and why 4/5 players be stumblin'
  • boltedarc said:

    Both moves can be dodged and parried not sure they need a nerf at all. WWDP can be avoided by WF by pressing up to jump dodge and parried very easily!

    Every move can be dodged or parried, and any predictable player will be parried over and over regardless of how meta their deck is (with exception of lag spikes and host advantage)... so that's irrelavent.

    The main issue is that they have so many positives that other options are just flat out worse, with little to no negatives to balance them out.

    Jumped Light Kick is faster than, has equal range to, and hits low unlike Straight Punch. It even has a significantly more disjointed hitbox that lingers alongside the ability to dodge sweeps on reaction due to how fast the jump comes out. The only downside is slightly less damage, but what's the point in slightly more damage if you can be dodged easier or swept during your attack 100% of the time.

    You can jump over and parry low spin heel even easier. WWDP has more tracking, covers more ground, and counters charge attacks easily due to the fast rate it double hits. The startup is somewhere between low spin heel and (barely) tripped back kick, but it has significantly more use than either other option in its category.


  • I like wwdp, but it's easily countered when using forsaken. You can see it coming from a mile away honestly. No other attack has the same startup motions. It definitely could use a bit less range for sure, but outside of that I see no real issue with it as most styles have an easy counter to it.
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